PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming • Hacker News Board

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#71

Post by pyre » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:24 PM UTC

imsofuture wrote: post #44

dos1 wrote: post #27

One of the reasons I've taken an interest in this whole fiasco is that I occasionally make "colorful" jokes. Not dissimilar from the two guys at PyCon. I make every attempt to keep these jokes private between my friends and I, but I'm sure others have heard me make them. Some people might find them funny, others may be offended. It scares me to think that making an offhand penis joke could result in being publicly ou…

What's amazing to me is the cognitive dissonance required to make the leap from Adria publicly outing someone (questionable, but not egregious given you know, the public venue) making an off-color joke to 'she got these people fired'. Their boss finding out what they said got them fired. Because what they said wasn't appropriate in the opinion of their employer. Period. Full stop.

  | what they said wasn't appropriate in the
  | opinion of their employer

There's more nuance than that. By tweeting it, she turned it into a public issue. The scale of the issue changed. The guy's employer probably fired him to avoid association with negative publicity, and to try to avoid being seen as supporting what he said. The fact that the guy was publicly shamed led to that. Had identities been anonymized while the issue was discussed publicly, then things may have turned out differently.

I don't think that she set out to get the guy fired, and it wasn't through direct action, but she did up the stakes.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#72

Post by gcb0 » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:25 PM UTC

Nothing to see here. She manipulated a bunch of guys (dressed up as woman, smiled while taking their pictures, giving a very false and manipulative premise) and publicly difamed them over something he/she overheard. Which could be totally taken out of context...

To be honest, anon taking an interest on her is a fitting end for someone who values the privacy of others so low like she proven to.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#73

Post by pfortuny » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:25 PM UTC

pfortuny wrote: post #62

dos1 wrote: post #27

One of the reasons I've taken an interest in this whole fiasco is that I occasionally make "colorful" jokes. Not dissimilar from the two guys at PyCon. I make every attempt to keep these jokes private between my friends and I, but I'm sure others have heard me make them. Some people might find them funny, others may be offended. It scares me to think that making an offhand penis joke could result in being publicly ou…

When you are a geek and attend a conference, you are certainly going to tweet everything relevant about it. Well, Adria Richards decided that silly joke was worth tweeting. I am sad for the person evicted from his job, but then again: f you do not know your environment, you should not work in it. And tweeter is as strong as it gets. It is hard, but these are real life jobs and real life conferences and real life educ…

Have I said anything wrong?

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#74

Post by sp332 » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:25 PM UTC

theorique wrote: post #33

JulianMorrison wrote: post #11

I disagree. Public shaming is the right way to make harassers actually fear the consequences (to their career, for example).

Which gets to the definition of harassment, right? Were these guys in a private, joking conversation harassing or simply overheard by accident? Think fast ... your job could depend on it.

They were in the middle of an auditorium, which is the opposite of private. Regardless of whether it constitutes harassment, the conference has a specific policy against it. Everyone involved said he was wrong and she was right, including they guy, who apologized in person and later in public on HN. She didn't ask for him to be fired.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#75

Post by obviouslygreen » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:25 PM UTC

pfortuny wrote: post #62

dos1 wrote: post #27

One of the reasons I've taken an interest in this whole fiasco is that I occasionally make "colorful" jokes. Not dissimilar from the two guys at PyCon. I make every attempt to keep these jokes private between my friends and I, but I'm sure others have heard me make them. Some people might find them funny, others may be offended. It scares me to think that making an offhand penis joke could result in being publicly ou…

When you are a geek and attend a conference, you are certainly going to tweet everything relevant about it. Well, Adria Richards decided that silly joke was worth tweeting. I am sad for the person evicted from his job, but then again: f you do not know your environment, you should not work in it. And tweeter is as strong as it gets. It is hard, but these are real life jobs and real life conferences and real life educ…

Silly jokes at a conference are like using a public wifi at RSA...

This is a terrible analogy, and your point is incomprehensible: If you don't know your environment, you should not work in it? Then we should never, ever attempt to enter a new field (including the first time), as there's no way you can ever know what you're getting into until you're in it, and we're all still learning about each other. Permanently.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#76

Post by CodeMage » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:25 PM UTC

dos1 wrote: post #27

One of the reasons I've taken an interest in this whole fiasco is that I occasionally make "colorful" jokes. Not dissimilar from the two guys at PyCon. I make every attempt to keep these jokes private between my friends and I, but I'm sure others have heard me make them. Some people might find them funny, others may be offended. It scares me to think that making an offhand penis joke could result in being publicly ou…

I believe she's being a hypocrite by taking offense one day, and making her own penis joke on Twitter the next.

I've seen that argument tossed about. There's a difference between reading someone's Twitter stream and hearing someone's joke while sitting in the audience at a convention. The former is reading content from someone you chose to follow, the latter is the equivalent of having people talk behind you in a movie theater.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#77

Post by throwaway0321 » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:27 PM UTC

imsofuture wrote: post #44

dos1 wrote: post #27

One of the reasons I've taken an interest in this whole fiasco is that I occasionally make "colorful" jokes. Not dissimilar from the two guys at PyCon. I make every attempt to keep these jokes private between my friends and I, but I'm sure others have heard me make them. Some people might find them funny, others may be offended. It scares me to think that making an offhand penis joke could result in being publicly ou…

What's amazing to me is the cognitive dissonance required to make the leap from Adria publicly outing someone (questionable, but not egregious given you know, the public venue) making an off-color joke to 'she got these people fired'. Their boss finding out what they said got them fired. Because what they said wasn't appropriate in the opinion of their employer. Period. Full stop.

The person being fired is a direct consequence of her tweet and/or blog post. She has thousands of followers. It isn't likely she thought nothing would come of it.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#78

Post by Zikes » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:27 PM UTC

pyre wrote: post #39

Zikes wrote: post #7

Should this open the door to a discussion about the ethics of public shaming?

Public shaming is a tool in the kit, but in this case it was the first one that she reached for. From her blog post, it sounded like it was out of frustration over other incidences (maybe even worse cases of offence / harassment) that she had also ignored. It was the 'straw that broke the camel's back' so to speak, and unleashed her pent up anger/frustration. Personally, I think that there were other avenues to pursu…

I very reluctantly have to agree that it is a tool in the kit, however as far as tools go I would have to liken it to resorting to a government coup because that pothole you reported last week still hasn't been filled. Sure it might be necessary in extreme situations, but equally extreme discretion and forethought is absolutely necessary.

As to it being a culmination of other offenses, that's a bit too speculatory for my taste. Who's to say the other alleged offenses weren't just as minor, to such a degree that, as in this case, I might not consider them an offense at all?

I do agree that it did not add anything to the goal of improving the community for women. If anything, it should be seen as a setback. As it is, this only serves to instill fear in men such that any slight misstep could result in extreme disciplinary action, ranging from public humiliation to loss of income.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#79

Post by jordan0day » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:27 PM UTC

imsofuture wrote: post #63

Sumaso wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was her public outing that caused this situation in the first place! Also, do you think if there wasn't as much drama going around that these men still would have been fired? There is much more to this situation then an employer finding out that one of their employees make a dongle joke at a conference, and decided that was grounds for them to be fired. It is much more likely that the employer doesn't want to be a…

If a man had posted that tweet, their firing would not have been notable and the internet would not be calling for boycotts, 'justice', apologies nor issuing death threats.

That's an unsupportable assertion.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#80

Post by pfortuny » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:28 PM UTC

obviouslygreen wrote: post #75

pfortuny wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you are a geek and attend a conference, you are certainly going to tweet everything relevant about it. Well, Adria Richards decided that silly joke was worth tweeting. I am sad for the person evicted from his job, but then again: f you do not know your environment, you should not work in it. And tweeter is as strong as it gets. It is hard, but these are real life jobs and real life conferences and real life educ…

Silly jokes at a conference are like using a public wifi at RSA... This is a terrible analogy, and your point is incomprehensible: If you don't know your environment, you should not work in it? Then we should never, ever attempt to enter a new field (including the first time), as there's no way you can ever know what you're getting into until you're in it, and we're all still learning about each other. Permanently.

I said environment. You do not start a job 'out of the blue' (as a matter of fact, it is impossible). Environment, just the environment. Please, please.

I know my words are hard but...

The analogy is terrible why? Running risks is risky whatever the risk.