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PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

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Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#251
post #135

The problem is not PyCon. This is not an issue that should be solved by changing a code of conduct. This is a problem with a person and her over zealous and ridiculous actions. Let's be clear here, there should be nothing wrong with making dick jokes to your friend. Did he say "Haha, look at these dongles. They look like dicks. But we don't need them because have dicks! Maybe they should give these to the women so th…

It seems that of late sex (or talk about sex) = sexism.

Well no wonder then, that we can't have decent penis joke no more.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) You don't get to tell someone what is offensive to them. 2) Totally agree, it was not a wise choice. 3) You don't get to tell someone what is offensive to them. 4) You don't get to tell someone what is offensive to them. 5) You don't get to tell someone what is offensive to them. 6) It's true, not all the best choices were made.

You seem to believe that offense is subjective to the individual. Should we then be responsible for everything we do that offends others? What level of recourse should they have for being offended? If we think that punitive action is appropriate given an offense, how do we determine what a legitimate offense is, versus a non-legitimate offense?

I don't see how offense could be anything but subjective to the individual, really. (Yes, I know there are things that are considered objective to the sub-group, but even within those sub-groups, there will be disagreement. That's clear from the various threads on this topic on HN.) The question many of us struggle with is where to draw that line between that "individual objection" and "free speech" - and how flexible that line should be.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#253
post #186
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Adrea[sic] did an arguably right thing in a wrong way It seems she did 2 different things. 1) She reported an incident that made her feel uncomfortable. (I think she did the correct thing here, at least I agree with it) 2) She posted a face photo of some attendees from a sponsoring company, publicly (not just for PyCon attendees but for the whole world) along with an insult "ass clowns". [note: 2 came before 1 as w…

Isn't publishing someone's photo without their consent, like, illegal ? I'm aware that copyright of the picture rests with the photographer, but if you want to publish someone's picture (and, as far as I understand it, tweeting is 'publishing'), don't you need their explicit consent?

Depending on country (state).

From what I remember in US in general (I am not a lawyer blah blah). There is little protection for taking pictures in public. But there are protections from profiting from those pictures.

I can see, given her position, that she thought she could profit very nicely from it, there might make an interesting case.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#254
post #70

They forgot to add that all childish jokes should not be shared amongst each other, ever.

Childishness, silliness, and lewdness is a core part of what Monty Python was about. Monty Python's style of humor was encouraged in the Python programmer culture from the beginning. It's ironic that Pycon's policy would prevent me from publicly reciting some of my favorite Flying Circus skit lines.

Well if the enforcer was dressed like a Colonel, then maybe people would accept it.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's amazing to me is the cognitive dissonance required to make the leap from Adria publicly outing someone (questionable, but not egregious given you know, the public venue) making an off-color joke to 'she got these people fired'. Their boss finding out what they said got them fired. Because what they said wasn't appropriate in the opinion of their employer. Period. Full stop.

Or maybe a viral picture of a misogynist with the company tshirt would be motivational enough for the company to fire him (maybe summed to other things in him the company didn't like, who knows). Is he really a misogynist jerk? Does not matter: the picture was published to twitter with that message implied. EDIT: I'm not saying he's a misogynist, in fact I think otherwise. What I'm saying is if she implies he is with…

a picture of a misogynist...

Jeez.

Do you have the raw text of the "dongle" joke available? If not, then on what basis are you labeling this person as a misogynist?

Really now -- you're making a specific, and highly charged accusation about this person. If you can't provide substantiation, then you should step back and apologize.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's amazing to me is the cognitive dissonance required to make the leap from Adria publicly outing someone (questionable, but not egregious given you know, the public venue) making an off-color joke to 'she got these people fired'. Their boss finding out what they said got them fired. Because what they said wasn't appropriate in the opinion of their employer. Period. Full stop.

We live in a politically correct world, and employers will do the wrong thing in order to save face because it's more expedient. It's hard to both try to help run a business and simultaneously wage war over social discourse. The pattern is that firms will react, and overreact, to what they perceive as a scandal involving hot-button issues. The firing was a mistake but maybe the people involved were afraid of what mig…

Exactly. Think of yourself as an employer - either you retain the employee and get branded as a "Women unfriendly company", or as a company that harbors "Male chauvenists". Or you just fire the relevant folks and save face.

Both are tough choices - but its obvious which one is the most (to the employer).

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#257
post #27

One of the reasons I've taken an interest in this whole fiasco is that I occasionally make "colorful" jokes. Not dissimilar from the two guys at PyCon. I make every attempt to keep these jokes private between my friends and I, but I'm sure others have heard me make them. Some people might find them funny, others may be offended. It scares me to think that making an offhand penis joke could result in being publicly ou…

I believe she's being a hypocrite by taking offense one day, and making her own penis joke on Twitter the next. I've seen that argument tossed about. There's a difference between reading someone's Twitter stream and hearing someone's joke while sitting in the audience at a convention. The former is reading content from someone you chose to follow, the latter is the equivalent of having people talk behind you in a mov…

No, it is hypocrisy. She was clearly feigning offense. She eavesdropped her way into internet infamy and her behavior was so extraordinarily irrational, I'm disappointed the PyCon organizers (and everyone else who has encountered this story) didn't laugh her out of the convention.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bingo. The meanest reactions have been people with a particular axe to grind rather than Python community members.

The problem with this is that it gets into dueling fallacies. Your opposition is arguing from induction (judging the whole based on the actions of a few), with a generous helping of Black Swan (deliberately ignoring counterexamples in favor of personal experience). But you're going on No True Scotsman (excluding people from a group based on factors that don't actually have anything to do with group membership) with a…

My comment was from empirical observation.

A lot of the angriest comments are from 'manosphere' bloggers and tweeters whom I know are not programmers. They are leveraging this event to complain about women and feminists, but they don't have any skin in the Python community.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#259

After reading all sides of the story, I see why there is so much anger towards Adria. However, it is unacceptable for her or SendGrid to be attacked digitally. Adria did an arguably right thing in a wrong way at the wrong time. 1. Assuming the way she said it happened is correct, the guys behind her made a sexual (forking/fucking; Dongle/Penis) not sexist joke. If it were even to be seen as sexist, it was towards men…

1) You don't get to tell someone what is offensive to them. 2) Totally agree, it was not a wise choice. 3) You don't get to tell someone what is offensive to them. 4) You don't get to tell someone what is offensive to them. 5) You don't get to tell someone what is offensive to them. 6) It's true, not all the best choices were made.

It's quite true that you can't tell someone what is offensive to them, but that's entirely beside the point. If someone is offended by something and takes no action then that doesn't matter at all. But if someone does something in response to how they feel they were offended, we're going to judge that response by how reasonable that offense seems to us.

If the two men in the situation we're talking about had been making crude remarks directly to her and she had contacted the organizers I don't think any body (I care about) would have questioned her actions. If she had pulled a gun and shot them, then I think everybody would agree that that was unjustified. And if she had complained to the organizers because the men were wearing VI polo shirts and she was a diehard emacs user that would also be unjustified.

And there are some forms of receiving offense, such as when a racist seeing a black person at a Python convention, where them taking any action at all based on that offence would be wrong. I'm sure there was at least one person like that at PyCon, but I'm also sure that society has trained them to keep their mouth shut. And a good thing too.

So we don't get to tell Adria what is offensive to her, but when she shames someone based on that offence we will judge her shaming based on how valid we judge to offence to be. If one of the men had told her to her face that women didn't belong at PyCon then I think her actions would have been entirely justified. As it was, not so much.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe she's being a hypocrite by taking offense one day, and making her own penis joke on Twitter the next. I can't find anything resembling a penis joke in her recent Twitter feed.

https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425

Thanks (so it was 6 days before her "outing" those guys, not the day after).

Either way, the hypocrisy she exhibits is quite astounding. Those in glass houses...

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