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PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

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Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#241

Post by btilly »

SeanDav wrote: post #185
mtrimpe wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a private conversation. I can't even ignore the conversation of annoying people three seats down in the train. When people in the seat behind me will start talking during a conference there would be no way for me not to listen to their conversation.

Just because you have good hearing and/or are incapable of focusing on something else does not make the conversation less private. A private conversation is one that is intended to occur only between the parties involved. Your being able to hear it or not is irrelevant if the intention and expectation was that the conversation is meant to be between specific parties. I understand this is not completely black and whit…

According to her account, their initial jokes were based off of a conversation that she was directly involved in. Based on that fact, in her position I would not have considered their conversation private.

Furthermore they continued their discussion while the presenter was talking. That right there is going to annoy people around them, even if they had the most innocent conversation in the world. Which they weren't. In fact her description left me with the impression that she thought they were specifically joking about her.

Basic scenario. Off color jokes starting off of your conversation, that you feel are directed at you, by random strangers in a public space. I can understand her getting upset by that. She may have been mistaken in her impressions, but her unfortunate emotional reaction is understandable to me.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#242

Post by lopatin »

SallySinep wrote: post #231
dos1 wrote: post #27

One of the reasons I've taken an interest in this whole fiasco is that I occasionally make "colorful" jokes. Not dissimilar from the two guys at PyCon. I make every attempt to keep these jokes private between my friends and I, but I'm sure others have heard me make them. Some people might find them funny, others may be offended. It scares me to think that making an offhand penis joke could result in being publicly ou…

I believe she's being a hypocrite by taking offense one day, and making her own penis joke on Twitter the next. I can't find anything resembling a penis joke in her recent Twitter feed.

https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#243

Post by RougeFemme »

king_jester wrote: post #173
pyre wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was an overreaction, but 'Women in Tech' is a hot-button issue. The ultra-conservative approach is to distance yourself from everything that could be construed as promoting a "boys' club" in tech. Disclaimer: I'm not supporting one side vs. the other here. I bear no grudge against her, but feel that she made a mistake in the way that she handled this.

This is true and actually contributes to the fact that women have a hard time in tech. If a company simply fires people as a CYA move nobody is ever going to seriously learn about and address sexism within that company as the decision makers there would rather just ignore the problem than do something about it.

Agreed. What did the "unfired" people left at the company learn from this? That it's unacceptable to ever have bawdy thoughts, let alone verbalize them? That it's unacceptable to make comments like that, ever - and here's why? That it's unacceptable to make comments like that in professional environments - and here's why? Or that you shouldn't make comments like that around Adria? This could've been a teachable moment for them and they blew it. Or maybe they didn't - we don't know what was said to the fired employee and remaining employees.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#244

Post by orourkek »

king_jester wrote: post #155
dos1 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree. The employer owns absolutely all responsibility for terminating the employee. However, I do not believe it would have been out of line for Adria to have said something like "I heard one of the guys in the photo I posted on Twitter yesterday was fired. I just wanted to say that I'm terribly sorry to hear that and my intent was never to cause harm! I'm very sorry!" I believe contrition on her part would…

So she should apologize because someone was offensive, got outed for it, and their employer felt that was reason enough to can them? I have to disagree, you do not have a right to remain anonymous while making a space unsafe and if the company you are representing feels that you've made them look horrible, they have a right to discipline you (although I believe a firing was too severe, if you fired everyone who had a…

> So she should apologize because someone was offensive, got outed for it, and their employer felt that was reason enough to can them?

No. What he said was:

> I do not believe it would have been out of line for Adria to have said something like "I heard one of the guys in the photo I posted on Twitter yesterday was fired. I just wanted to say that I'm terribly sorry to hear that and my intent was never to cause harm! I'm very sorry!"

Not that she should have done it, but basically that he thinks it would have been a good idea and could have been a solution to the entire fiasco.

For someone who is so publicly concerned with professionalism, I feel Adria should/could have either:

1. Not taken a semi-secret photo of the guys with the intent of publicly outing them. If she was really offended by the comments she should have gotten up and contacted the event staff. The unprofessional thing to do would be to take a conversation out of context, pair it with a picture of the guys, and tweet it to thousands of people. What's the end game there?

2. Assuming she did tweet as she did, the professional response would be to apologize to the guy that got fired. Saying that she's sorry that he got fired (not even that she's sorry for getting him fired, which is obviously debatable) would have, as the above poster noted, nipped the whole thing in the bud.

The other factor here is that Adria was obviously villainized and attacked seemingly from all angles. I understand that this would be a hard thing to deal with, but I can't exactly empathize with her. Tweeting about the incident is one thing, but taking a picture of them is taking it to another level entirely - and not a very professional level at that...

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#245

Post by bad_user »

EthanHeilman wrote: post #209
SeanDav wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since when did it become ok to vilify someone for a private conversation? A private conversation in a public area is still private. This woman was guilty of listening to a private conversation, taking some sort of offence and then going out of her way to publicly shame them. Anyone trying to defend her is not thinking very clearly. If you look at her own posting history she is guilty of off-colour jokes and downright…

Perhaps irrelevant counterexamples: >Since when did it become ok to vilify someone for a private conversation? * Having a private conversation during a movie or play is generally considered the action of the worse sort of villain. * Plenty of people have been vilified and sent to jail on the basis of statements made privately. * Just because something is private doesn't mean it isn't disruptive to people within earsh…

> Just because something is private doesn't mean it isn't disruptive to people within earshot

Just because something is disrupting people's ears, that doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. Ultimately it becomes a freedom of speech issue.

The joke wasn't sexist. Sexist jokes offend me too. But am I supposed to stop making sexual jokes now because somebody around me might get offended? Sorry, but fuck off and don't listen if you're a sensitive bitch.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#247

Post by tomjen3 »

shadowmint wrote: post #161

I think it's interesting that public shaming isn't the answer to problems, but that a lot of people don't seem to appreciate that. It's not just Adria. Remember John Scalsi and "When Gut-Boys Attack"? http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/11/14/when-gut-boys-attack/ Same thing. Take a person, smash them publicly, and hope that the everyone watching will get the idea and stop doing that thing, because of fear of similar pun…

3) is horrible. It only works if you assume that you are so much smarter and have more knowledge than the people who are involved in the issue, and that you can therefore come up with an argument that they haven't heard before that is still so utterly convincing that they turn 100% around.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#248

Post by blhack »

imsofuture wrote: post #44
dos1 wrote: post #27

One of the reasons I've taken an interest in this whole fiasco is that I occasionally make "colorful" jokes. Not dissimilar from the two guys at PyCon. I make every attempt to keep these jokes private between my friends and I, but I'm sure others have heard me make them. Some people might find them funny, others may be offended. It scares me to think that making an offhand penis joke could result in being publicly ou…

What's amazing to me is the cognitive dissonance required to make the leap from Adria publicly outing someone (questionable, but not egregious given you know, the public venue) making an off-color joke to 'she got these people fired'. Their boss finding out what they said got them fired. Because what they said wasn't appropriate in the opinion of their employer. Period. Full stop.

>Because what they said wasn't appropriate in the opinion of their employer. Period. Full stop.

Ha. Hardly.

The guy was fired because the company didn't want to deal with the wrath of angry internet armies following along with Adria Richards.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#249

Post by donaq »

niggler wrote: post #230
SeanDav wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because you have good hearing and/or are incapable of focusing on something else does not make the conversation less private. A private conversation is one that is intended to occur only between the parties involved. Your being able to hear it or not is irrelevant if the intention and expectation was that the conversation is meant to be between specific parties. I understand this is not completely black and whit…

"A private conversation is one that is intended to occur only between the parties involved." What are your thoughts on the Romney 47% remark? (that was recorded by a bartender at the event)

I don't pay much attention to American politics, but Romney was running for public office. Arguably the most powerful political role in the world, which makes his private opinions very relevant to everyone.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#250

Post by dos1 »

mst wrote: post #202
king_jester wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So she should apologize because someone was offensive, got outed for it, and their employer felt that was reason enough to can them? I have to disagree, you do not have a right to remain anonymous while making a space unsafe and if the company you are representing feels that you've made them look horrible, they have a right to discipline you (although I believe a firing was too severe, if you fired everyone who had a…

Given she tweeted shortly afterwards that pycon staff were dealing with the problem and she was happy with that, I think she implicitly wasn't condoning any action taken by anybody afterwards. Making that explicit might have been a good thing to do at the time; I don't see that such a statement would've needed to be in the form of an apology though, merely a clear dissocation from the stupid choices made by an HR dep…

Sure, she didn't need to apologize (and hasn't). Look how good that's worked out for her and SendGrid.
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