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PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

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Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#191

Post by RougeFemme »

cynicalkane wrote: post #85
imsofuture wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's amazing to me is the cognitive dissonance required to make the leap from Adria publicly outing someone (questionable, but not egregious given you know, the public venue) making an off-color joke to 'she got these people fired'. Their boss finding out what they said got them fired. Because what they said wasn't appropriate in the opinion of their employer. Period. Full stop.

We live in a politically correct world, and employers will do the wrong thing in order to save face because it's more expedient. It's hard to both try to help run a business and simultaneously wage war over social discourse. The pattern is that firms will react, and overreact, to what they perceive as a scandal involving hot-button issues. The firing was a mistake but maybe the people involved were afraid of what mig…

Not all employers will over-react and fire someone. The employer could have chosen to keep him and say the standard, "We regret. . .We do not condone. . .We have taken appropriate action. . .The specific action taken is a private personnel matter." Yes, it's BS to some degree, but in this case it would have been valid. And yes, some people might have still called for his head, but I suspect that number would have been relatively small.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#192

Post by rmrfrmrf »

freehunter wrote: post #119
pfortuny wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, sorry, the situation was started by someone doing something which is at least rude. They robbed the butcher's cash. It is his fault for leaving it in the counter. Sorry: it was the robber's fault and the butcher's imprudence, nothing more.

So throwing out a hyperbole to point out absurdity: if this man had been stabbed rather than fired, would you still say that if they didn't want to be stabbed, they shouldn't have made a rude joke? If the community is just so far out of control like people here are saying it is, who is the actual irresponsible party here? Making the crude remark might be rude, but it hurts no one. There was no real damage from the jo…

> So throwing out a hyperbole to point out absurdity: if this man had been stabbed rather than fired, would you still say that if they didn't want to be stabbed, they shouldn't have made a rude joke?

I can't even begin to explain how fallacious this argument is.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#193

Post by [deleted] »

mtrimpe wrote: post #137
SeanDav wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since when did it become ok to vilify someone for a private conversation? A private conversation in a public area is still private. This woman was guilty of listening to a private conversation, taking some sort of offence and then going out of her way to publicly shame them. Anyone trying to defend her is not thinking very clearly. If you look at her own posting history she is guilty of off-colour jokes and downright…

It's not a private conversation. I can't even ignore the conversation of annoying people three seats down in the train. When people in the seat behind me will start talking during a conference there would be no way for me not to listen to their conversation.

[deleted]

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#194

Post by dopamean »

SeanDav wrote: post #116
CodeMage wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe she's being a hypocrite by taking offense one day, and making her own penis joke on Twitter the next. I've seen that argument tossed about. There's a difference between reading someone's Twitter stream and hearing someone's joke while sitting in the audience at a convention. The former is reading content from someone you chose to follow, the latter is the equivalent of having people talk behind you in a mov…

Since when did it become ok to vilify someone for a private conversation? A private conversation in a public area is still private. This woman was guilty of listening to a private conversation, taking some sort of offence and then going out of her way to publicly shame them. Anyone trying to defend her is not thinking very clearly. If you look at her own posting history she is guilty of off-colour jokes and downright…

This is not true. Any conversation had in a place where it could easily be overheard by others is legally not a private conversation. Even if it was had between a client and an attorney the privilege that would normally exist would not.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#195

Post by rmrfrmrf »

vidarh wrote: post #120
jasonlotito wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Public shaming was not the right way to handle the situation. I find it odd then that the mob went after Adria, doing exactly what they are calling her out for doing, and publicly shaming her. Saying that she started it, or that two wrongs make a right, or any like that is only highlighting the hypocrisy.

There's a fundamental difference between publicly shaming someone who made a semi-private comment (I'm assuming the guy in question did not stand up and yell the joke to the entire conference) vs. publicly criticising someone for comments they themselves made in a way that was extremely public. If she wants to take something like this public, she should expect the responses to be public.

In other words, it's OK if men do it, but not if a woman does it.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#196

Post by belorn »

mtrimpe wrote: post #137
SeanDav wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since when did it become ok to vilify someone for a private conversation? A private conversation in a public area is still private. This woman was guilty of listening to a private conversation, taking some sort of offence and then going out of her way to publicly shame them. Anyone trying to defend her is not thinking very clearly. If you look at her own posting history she is guilty of off-colour jokes and downright…

It's not a private conversation. I can't even ignore the conversation of annoying people three seats down in the train. When people in the seat behind me will start talking during a conference there would be no way for me not to listen to their conversation.

I know crackers have the same issue. They can't help not to look when people freely type their passwords in front of them during conferences. How can they not look memorize that password? And from there to use it or post it on twitter is just a small step right?

Admins has the same problems. A co-worker ask them for help fixing their emails, and the content of those email are just there. How can they not see the conversation about sexual diseases being present in the inbox. And from there to complain on twitter about it is just a small step.

Polite behavior is to sometimes not look/listen/read even if its being done right in front of you. At least one should have the decency of not go out and post it on twitter, even if one is "offended" by what you saw/heard.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#197

Post by rmrfrmrf »

growse wrote: post #186
rdtsc wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Adrea[sic] did an arguably right thing in a wrong way It seems she did 2 different things. 1) She reported an incident that made her feel uncomfortable. (I think she did the correct thing here, at least I agree with it) 2) She posted a face photo of some attendees from a sponsoring company, publicly (not just for PyCon attendees but for the whole world) along with an insult "ass clowns". [note: 2 came before 1 as w…

Isn't publishing someone's photo without their consent, like, illegal ? I'm aware that copyright of the picture rests with the photographer, but if you want to publish someone's picture (and, as far as I understand it, tweeting is 'publishing'), don't you need their explicit consent?

No.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#199

Post by Cushman »

drharris wrote: post #170
Cushman wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Should we then be responsible for everything we do that offends others? Yes. > What level of recourse should they have for being offended? If we think that punitive action is appropriate given an offense, how do we determine what a legitimate offense is, versus a non-legitimate offense? If people finding out publicly that you did it would cause you to lose your job, that might be a good indicator.

Well, let's say I'm offended by your username. I'm so offended that I feel the proper punishment should be paying reparations of no less than $1M to the charity of my choice. Is it my offense taken by your username a fair offense? What standard is used to determine what offenses are legitimate, and what determines a proper punishment for that offense. Furthermore, how are you to know in advance that your username is…

Sure, and let's say that I'm offended by your face, and I want a million dollars for that. How do we resolve this?

It seems to me that we exist in a community that has a pretty well-evolved process for determining what is reasonable.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#200

Post by itafroma »

surge wrote: post #189
jack_trades wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public shame is not a problem. Public shame is less about an individual and more about sharing expectations with a community. Shame on people who can't help but blurt out clumsy penis jokes in essentially tight quarters at a professional conference. Go and make colorful jokes everywhere and then defend yourself on twitter. Who's stopping you/them? They have twitter accounts, no? Represent yourselves. More words tell…

PyCon is a conference for Python programmers, professional and amateur, no where is the term "professionals only" stated. It's a conference for people who have an interest in Python. If it is, maybe I missed the business attire requirement, and requirement that you have to be a professional Python programmer sent as a representative of a company to attend. There are professional conferences, very corporate in nature,…

The PyCon code of conduct[1] appears to clearly disagree with your characterization that the event is not for a professional audience:

> All communication should be appropriate for a professional audience including people of many different backgrounds. Sexual language and imagery is not appropriate for any conference venue, including talks.

> Be kind to others. Do not insult or put down other attendees. Behave professionally. Remember that harassment and sexist, racist, or exclusionary jokes are not appropriate for PyCon.

I understand you're trying to use "professional" in the sense of being someone who earns their living using the language and wears a stuffy suit, but that's not the sense used by the GP or PyCon.

[1]: https://github.com/python/pycon-code-of-conduct/blob/master/...

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