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PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

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Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#91

Post by largesse »

jasonlotito wrote: post #83
dos1 wrote: post #27

One of the reasons I've taken an interest in this whole fiasco is that I occasionally make "colorful" jokes. Not dissimilar from the two guys at PyCon. I make every attempt to keep these jokes private between my friends and I, but I'm sure others have heard me make them. Some people might find them funny, others may be offended. It scares me to think that making an offhand penis joke could result in being publicly ou…

> Public shaming was not the right way to handle the situation. I find it odd then that the mob went after Adria, doing exactly what they are calling her out for doing, and publicly shaming her. Saying that she started it, or that two wrongs make a right, or any like that is only highlighting the hypocrisy.

You're assuming that the people who are against public shaming are the ones doing it to her. "The mob" you speak of is not a thing.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#93

Post by jasonlotito »

imsofuture wrote: post #56
OoTheNigerian wrote: post #26

After reading all sides of the story, I see why there is so much anger towards Adria. However, it is unacceptable for her or SendGrid to be attacked digitally. Adria did an arguably right thing in a wrong way at the wrong time. 1. Assuming the way she said it happened is correct, the guys behind her made a sexual (forking/fucking; Dongle/Penis) not sexist joke. If it were even to be seen as sexist, it was towards men…

1) You don't get to tell someone what is offensive to them. 2) Totally agree, it was not a wise choice. 3) You don't get to tell someone what is offensive to them. 4) You don't get to tell someone what is offensive to them. 5) You don't get to tell someone what is offensive to them. 6) It's true, not all the best choices were made.

> 1) You don't get to tell someone what is offensive to them.

That would mean you can't be upset for her publicly shaming the guy. You find that offensive, she does not.

You can have it both ways.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#94

Post by dos1 »

aviraldg wrote: post #82
dos1 wrote: post #27

One of the reasons I've taken an interest in this whole fiasco is that I occasionally make "colorful" jokes. Not dissimilar from the two guys at PyCon. I make every attempt to keep these jokes private between my friends and I, but I'm sure others have heard me make them. Some people might find them funny, others may be offended. It scares me to think that making an offhand penis joke could result in being publicly ou…

Sorry - I hate to be a grammar nazi, but this is something I feel more people should know about: "wraith" means "ghost" whereas "wrath" means "anger."

Yes, thank you very much! I constantly make this mistake. I've edited :)

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#95

Post by rdtsc »

OoTheNigerian wrote: post #26

After reading all sides of the story, I see why there is so much anger towards Adria. However, it is unacceptable for her or SendGrid to be attacked digitally. Adria did an arguably right thing in a wrong way at the wrong time. 1. Assuming the way she said it happened is correct, the guys behind her made a sexual (forking/fucking; Dongle/Penis) not sexist joke. If it were even to be seen as sexist, it was towards men…

> Adrea[sic] did an arguably right thing in a wrong way

It seems she did 2 different things.

1) She reported an incident that made her feel uncomfortable. (I think she did the correct thing here, at least I agree with it)

2) She posted a face photo of some attendees from a sponsoring company, publicly (not just for PyCon attendees but for the whole world) along with an insult "ass clowns".

[note: 2 came before 1 as well]

2 is completely unacceptable and I am disappointed and disgusted at PyCon for not kicked her out. Image you go around with a phone snapping pictures of attendees, immediately send them to twitter with insulting tags below.

I think she should be the one to lose her job, and PyCon should issue a public apology (a little edit in Github won't do it, sorry). If she doesn't understand why what she did was wrong, she shouldn't be invited to PyCon in future years. How about this, if she comes, I won't.

PlayHeaven -- what can I say. I haven't heard of them before but they sure are on my black list as of yesterday. To terminate an employer after he has been slandered online is disrespectful. I refuse to do business with you and will go out my way to tell everyone what you did.

(There is another side issue here and I think it goes beyond hypocrisy I think it is straight malignancy. I think she pondered her odds and decided to roll the dice, given her position she quickly climbed the popularity ladder from 0 to 100 in a one day, I have no proof of this, only she knows, but her job title combined with her previous off color penis jokes on Twitter point me in that direction).

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#96

Post by Cushman »

drharris wrote: post #81
imsofuture wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) You don't get to tell someone what is offensive to them. 2) Totally agree, it was not a wise choice. 3) You don't get to tell someone what is offensive to them. 4) You don't get to tell someone what is offensive to them. 5) You don't get to tell someone what is offensive to them. 6) It's true, not all the best choices were made.

You seem to believe that offense is subjective to the individual. Should we then be responsible for everything we do that offends others? What level of recourse should they have for being offended? If we think that punitive action is appropriate given an offense, how do we determine what a legitimate offense is, versus a non-legitimate offense?

> Should we then be responsible for everything we do that offends others?

Yes.

> What level of recourse should they have for being offended? If we think that punitive action is appropriate given an offense, how do we determine what a legitimate offense is, versus a non-legitimate offense?

If people finding out publicly that you did it would cause you to lose your job, that might be a good indicator.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#97

Post by CodeMage »

niggler wrote: post #43
Zikes wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It would have been better for Adria Richards to address the matter directly rather than post a photo on twitter This isn't a case of "it would have been better", it was a case of "what she did was clearly wrong". She overreacted as did the man's employer, and she has not shown any remorse. > But the extreme outburst of misogyny - the insults, abuse, and physical threats including threats of rape - is perhaps the bi…

"She overreacted as did the man's employer, and she has not shown any remorse." The problem is that people are attributing to her certain actions that she was not involved in. She didn't fire the guy; the employer did, based on his interpretation of the actions. If calling attention to potential misogyny results in a witch-hunt or in victim-blaming, the underlying problems won't be addressed. lizzard ( https://news.y…

The problem is that people are attributing to her certain actions that she was not involved in. She didn't fire the guy; the employer did, based on his interpretation of the actions.

I am continually perplexed to see this argument. Two guys made inappropriate jokes in a public place and the same people who agree that "we didn't mean any harm" is not a valid defense for them offer a "she didn't mean any harm" as a defense for Adria's decision to publicly broadcast her complaint.

I applaud Adria for standing up and not tolerating unacceptable behavior, but I strongly disagree with the way she stood up. As she writes on her blog, she "began to contacting the PyCon staff via text message" and "PyCon responded quickly not just with words but with action". That would have dealt with the problem, without escalation that resulted in one of the guys getting fired.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#98

Post by Nursie »

throwawayabc wrote: post #42

This is tricky. "Dear Attendees, If you feel you're being harassed, please don't tell anyone but us. Thanks." As a general rule I think we should be working to empower people to handle situations on their own (part of that handling will likely include notifying organizers). Not disenfranchising them so they've got no recourse but to report something to a group of people selected for their ability to run a conference,…

That's not really what it says though - "Report the harassment incident (preferably in writing) to a conference staff member - all reports are confidential, please do not disclose public information about the incident until the staff have had sufficient time in which to address the situation. "

It's saying 'please tell us first and give us a chance to sort it out to everyone's satisfaction'.

That's really not tricky at all.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#99

Post by uptown »

jasonlotito wrote: post #83
dos1 wrote: post #27

One of the reasons I've taken an interest in this whole fiasco is that I occasionally make "colorful" jokes. Not dissimilar from the two guys at PyCon. I make every attempt to keep these jokes private between my friends and I, but I'm sure others have heard me make them. Some people might find them funny, others may be offended. It scares me to think that making an offhand penis joke could result in being publicly ou…

> Public shaming was not the right way to handle the situation. I find it odd then that the mob went after Adria, doing exactly what they are calling her out for doing, and publicly shaming her. Saying that she started it, or that two wrongs make a right, or any like that is only highlighting the hypocrisy.

One distinction is that the comments made by the developer were directed at his colleague, while her tweet was directed to the public, or at the very least to those that followed her on Twitter at the time of her tweet.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#100

Post by nawitus »

imsofuture wrote: post #44
dos1 wrote: post #27

One of the reasons I've taken an interest in this whole fiasco is that I occasionally make "colorful" jokes. Not dissimilar from the two guys at PyCon. I make every attempt to keep these jokes private between my friends and I, but I'm sure others have heard me make them. Some people might find them funny, others may be offended. It scares me to think that making an offhand penis joke could result in being publicly ou…

What's amazing to me is the cognitive dissonance required to make the leap from Adria publicly outing someone (questionable, but not egregious given you know, the public venue) making an off-color joke to 'she got these people fired'. Their boss finding out what they said got them fired. Because what they said wasn't appropriate in the opinion of their employer. Period. Full stop.

Hypothethical example: if a feminist group attacks a company which employs a person, then the company is pressured into letting said person go, because they don't want to get associated with misogy, as that might decrease profit. In that example the feminist group is clearly responsible for the firing of the guy, even though the company technically made the decision.

You can't just lay the blame on the company which has to operate in reality, and has to protect their brand. That said, part of the blame is also with the company.

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