Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree, all the stuff I read it's like going back a century, we are supposed to be on the vanguard of a brave new world, not re-hashing the same dumb ass attitude that has contaminated the past decades. Grow up, get on and be nice.
See, but the fact that you're reading about it at all, that people are arguing about it at all , means we're doing better. The fact that outrage about sexism even exists is progress. It's the (slight) progress of shining a harsh light on the previously unnoticed realities that were always there.
Speaking up
261–270 of 342 posts
Re: Speaking up
#262Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is indeed tricky. I want to give developers a positive association with our company and with me as an individual. Being confrontational does the opposite.
I think, in this case, being confrontational is the right thing to do (though I don't think you should have to engage in a confrontation if you don't want to). Most people (despite the arguments here, which are mostly about either semantics or arcane ethical points) think that the way the guy you described behaved is unacceptable. You're one of us , a hacker, and you don't deserve to be treated like that. I can't ima…
I can't agree with that. The situation she describes is where she's acting as a representative of her company, and anything she does is as the face of the company, rather than as a person.
The decision to be confrontational about it is her company's decision, not hers.
Re: Speaking up
#263Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think two things make it more likely for me to encounter incidents of sexism: 1) I do some programming for my job, but a majority of it involves going out and meeting other developers, learning about their work, and seeing how we can make our API better for them. I live in SF so I can't get a coffee without bumping into another developer. I bet I have many more interactions than someone who is developing full time…
Come on, guys (and gals). If we accepted that "Beards of Experience" is sexist, we would have to accept that it's also racist (many Asian men can't grow beards like the guy on gun.io) and maybe homophobic. Don't you think it would get ridiculous at that point? What about parenting sites where the design and images are clearly targeted at mothers (and not fathers)? Are they evil? Sexist?
And yes. Parenting sites that assume that fathers can't be parents are sexist. Parenting sites that assume that fathers won't be primary caretakers because their target demographic's culture is sexist and doesn't understand that male parents are important are fence-sitting and sexist by omission.
Re: Speaking up
#264http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Feminism...
Re: Speaking up
#265Earlier quoted context omitted.
Romcoms are fiction. There are loads of "romantic" movies where, if acted out IRL, the hero would be rightly arrested on felony charges. They're not meant to be taken as instructional.
Yeah, I know that. And yet, people love them anyway. Again: "sweet" vs. "creepy" is all down to reading the situation.
Re: Speaking up
#266Are there any high profile women in this industry who haven't been treated like shit in some way such as this? What a nasty bunch of people we are. Are we (developers) the douchey 80s guy of the 21st century?
And this is why you need moderated communities, because otherwise the assholes will dominate the discourse in your chosen milieu and drive out anyone they deem unacceptable. Very often it's women. I don't know why but either there's a class of developers who feel personally threatened by women in their chosen profession, or it's personal: some individual has believed themselves to be entitled to that woman's attentio…
We certainly need to address the problems of sexism within our community, but I think it's a mistake to assume that it's part of the community's particular quirks that produce said sexism. Especially when there are some far more obvious indicators of where the sexism comes from: the larger cultural discourse and ambience, for instance.
Re: Speaking up
#267Are there any high profile women in this industry who haven't been treated like shit in some way such as this? What a nasty bunch of people we are. Are we (developers) the douchey 80s guy of the 21st century?
I'm a man. We (male) developers don't have to be like this, and many of us aren't. But, I've said it before and I'll say it again: men have even more of a responsibility than women to speak up and combat this kind of sexism. We (men) have the utmost responsibility to make sure that we are fighting to allow women a place in our industry, a place where they feel safe enough so that they can be equal participants withou…
Some advice on how to do this, for anyone looking: http://www.anamardoll.com/2012/11/deconstruction-how-to-be-m...
Re: Speaking up
#268Earlier quoted context omitted.
> What a nasty bunch of people we are. Why is wondering aloud how sexist/creepy the bulk of male programmers are more acceptable than wondering aloud how untalented the bulk of female programmers are? I think both behaviors are rather low shaming behaviors.
because discrimination is about power. if two groups have equal amounts of power it really doesn't matter that much (except for social courtesy sake) what they say about each other. discrimination is a problem when it's associated with inequality. it's a big deal when a majority bash a minority. the other way round, not so much. even less so when the criticism is internal to the majority.
1. Most of the those who have power are men.
2. Most of those who are men have power.
They are very different statements and one does not imply the other.
The average man has no more power than the average woman.
Re: Speaking up
#269Earlier quoted context omitted.
Generally speaking, across the globe, female sexuality is framed as something which exists for the pleasure of men. A stronger rebuttal to remarks which objectify a woman sexually is not to be all in a huff but to turn it around and talk about men like they are sex objects. I am a woman. I have done that. It is such a powerful thing to do that if I am not extremely careful, rather than teaching men they should not ta…
"female sexuality is framed as something which exists for the pleasure of men." I must say I have never noticed this, so I am not sure what to say. I can't really make sense of it either. My impression was sex exists to create babies, not to pleasure men. I don't say that to try to be funny, just to express that it seems a very long way from that to "female sexuality exits to pleasure men". Or do you mean the use of…
Yes, biologically, sex is to make babies. But culturally, there is a very strong bias globally that men are entitled to such pleasure, women are not (to the point that some cultures cut away the clitoris to try to keep women faithful to their spouse). I have met men who thought they were enlightened, new age men because of their attitude "I do not mind if you enjoy the ride, honey". These men have no clue. None. If he doesn't get it that making sure I enjoy it is his job, I have zero reason to service the selfish, disrespectful, clueless asshole. If it is my job to make sure I enjoy it, I can do that without the extra work of servicing him or the exposure to risk of pregnancy and disease. It's called masturbation. I do not need a man's company for that, thank you.
Buying a car to impress a lady is not about what she wants. It is about what you want. Most women do not have orgasms because they saw a nice car. The point of such activities is rooted in the fact that most heterosexual relationships involve some degree of a man buying his way into a woman's bed. That makes her a servant. He who has the gold makes the rules. Unless you bought the car as a gift for her, it isn't even a generous thing to do. It is merely bragging that you can afford to buy your way into her bed. And women are kind of stupid to go along with that paradigm. The typical outcome is that she becomes his maid and property, not some pampered person of privilege.
But since women are the ones that get pregnant, that paradigm isn't going to go away any time soon. The nuclear family with male breadwinner model works pretty well on the whole and beats the hell out of the often hostile American model of women's lib which declares "I don't need a man!" Most women want babies. A baby is a big burden. The single parent thing is an extremely hard row to hoe. But planning for the fact that sex leads to babies, at which point you will be better off if the father makes enough money to support a family, in no way makes that about her sexual gratification.
I have talked to plenty of people over the years and read plenty of books and articles on human sexuality. An awful lot of people express the idea that it is perfectly okay if she doesn't orgasm every time, women just aren't biologically the same as men, blah blah blah, it is reasonanle for him to get his anyway. And it is true, we are different, biologically. But the big difference is that women are far more capable of being multiorgasmic than men are. The degree to which it is assumed that sex is primarily or solely for male pleasure is pretty rampant. There is zero biological reason to frame it that way.
I am also tired and should probably drop out of this conversation. I have spent years backpedaling from a pattern of being a loudmouthed brassy broad and getting lynched for it. It isn't a hobby I care to resume.