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Speaking up

sazzy.co.uk

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Re: Speaking up

#251

Post by geoka9 »

mwetzler wrote: post #169
rdl wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I obviously never get comments like this (being a man in a male-dominated field), but I hear about some women in the industry getting it more often than others. I'm sure there's reporting bias, but at least some of the women I've talked to seem to think it's not a common problem for them at least (but happens to others). I wonder if there are specific things which make it more likely for some women to be harassed lik…

I think two things make it more likely for me to encounter incidents of sexism: 1) I do some programming for my job, but a majority of it involves going out and meeting other developers, learning about their work, and seeing how we can make our API better for them. I live in SF so I can't get a coffee without bumping into another developer. I bet I have many more interactions than someone who is developing full time…

Come on, guys (and gals).

If we accepted that "Beards of Experience" is sexist, we would have to accept that it's also racist (many Asian men can't grow beards like the guy on gun.io) and maybe homophobic. Don't you think it would get ridiculous at that point?

What about parenting sites where the design and images are clearly targeted at mothers (and not fathers)? Are they evil? Sexist?

Re: Speaking up

#252

Post by DanBC »

Tichy wrote: post #208
onemorepassword wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if there is such an example, you really need to have your head stuck firmly up your ass if you're willing to argue that it would have anywhere near the same social and emotional impact. Perhaps "outing" a developer as gay could have a comparable impact for men, but that would only apply in predominantly homophobic communities. Which in turn says a lot about this community's attitude towards women. If it wasn't h…

Just read it again, and have to ask: what was the impact of those actions on the community? It obviously had an impact on the targeted woman, but the community? Did anybody really think "gee she looks ugly in those pictures, I guess she sucks as a person" or anything like that?

Maybe female devs saw it, and decided they didn't want to be the target of that behaviour, and decided not to contribute to tech conferences?

Re: Speaking up

#253

Post by fatbird »

nollidge wrote: post #162
gavanwoolery wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, people are going to attack women in very different ways then men. I can't imagine that many people would want to create nude pics of a guy to insult him. But that's not what I am getting at -- I am trying to say that this incident does not reflect the majority of males, nor does it make the whole IT industry sexist. You can't start saying that everyone/everything is sexist just because one incident of it occurre…

Nobody said it reflected the majority of males. Nobody said it makes the whole industry sexist. Nobody said everyone is sexist. Nobody is basing their opinion on one incident. Tell me more about this "straw man fallacy", though.

See his reply to mine above :)

Re: Speaking up

#254

Post by hopeless_case »

throwaway54-762 wrote: post #192
Tichy wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cases of men being stalked do exist.

Exists != happens systematically. Something like fully 1/3-1/4 of women are harassed or raped during the course of their life. ONE IN FOUR. Can you imagine, one out of every four men you know in tech being stalked, harassed, or abused? While men being stalked is terrible, it simply isn't on the same scale as the stalking of women.

Men and women commit rape and are raped in roughly equal numbers, and that is not including prison rape. When do include that, men are the majority of the victims.

The CDC's 2010 National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, which looked at society at large and excluded the prison population, found that 1.1% of women and 1.1% or men surveyed were raped in the prior 12 months.

98% of women who had been raped identified a man as their attacker and 80% of the men who had been raped identified a woman as their attacker. This works out to men being 60% of rapists and women being 40% of rapists.

Here is an analysis with all the calculations laid out and tied back to the data tables in the NISVS report: http://www.genderratic.com/p/836/manufacturing-female-victim...

Here is a link to the data tables with the relevant figures circled: http://imgur.com/a/aw0eU

Now, the NISVS's executive summary does not tell this story. It tells the usual story of rape being something men overwhelmingly to do women. The way it does that is by defining rape to be 'being penetrated against your will', excluding 'being made to penetrate', which is what a female rapist would do to a man.

Nevertheless, the study does track how many men were made to penetrate (which it categorizes as 'other, sexual assault'), so it is possible to correct the definition of rape to one that doesn't erase female on male rape ('made to have sex against your will'), and when you do, rape ceases to be a gendered crime.

So yes, I can imagine what it would be like for men to be raped as often as women are. Now, can you imagine what it would be like if female rape victims, like male rape victims, were defined out of existence, and offered no recognition, or help?

Re: Speaking up

#255

Post by fatbird »

gavanwoolery wrote: post #144
nollidge wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For glob's sake, I wish people would stop saying "I'm not sexist BUT..." or "I'm not racist BUT..." or "I'm not a homophobe BUT..." Because: A) You're setting yourself up for failure. B) Show, don't tell. but most importantly C) it's hardly ever useful to denote any one person as racist or sexist or whatever. It's thoughts and ideas and biases which are much more usefully labeled so. So, great, you are not sexist: yo…

No buts, I just wanted to make it apparent from the start that I am not sexist. "Equality" is all that I want, and it bugs me when people start saying things like "the industry is filled with sexism" or "sexism is the norm" or "most males are sexist" because it is simply not true. Or it is true, and 99.999 women just choose to be silent about their cases of sexism. It is insulting when people attack males as a single…

It is insulting when people attack males as a single group based on some edge cases.

Men are so sensitive about sexist comments when they perceive they're the targets. Lighten up, dude, I'm not sexist :)

Re: Speaking up

#256

Post by andrewcooke »

hopeless_case wrote: post #201
h2s wrote: post #2

Are there any high profile women in this industry who haven't been treated like shit in some way such as this? What a nasty bunch of people we are. Are we (developers) the douchey 80s guy of the 21st century?

> What a nasty bunch of people we are. Why is wondering aloud how sexist/creepy the bulk of male programmers are more acceptable than wondering aloud how untalented the bulk of female programmers are? I think both behaviors are rather low shaming behaviors.

because discrimination is about power. if two groups have equal amounts of power it really doesn't matter that much (except for social courtesy sake) what they say about each other. discrimination is a problem when it's associated with inequality. it's a big deal when a majority bash a minority. the other way round, not so much. even less so when the criticism is internal to the majority.

Re: Speaking up

#257

Post by lizzard »

detst wrote: post #124
timsally wrote: post #90

Whenever an instance of blatant sexism comes up, an attempt is invariably made to rationalize away the fact that a sexist act has actually occurred. We have had two such attempts made here so far and I expect more. One commentator is attempting to advance the baseless theory that the bully did not care about the sex of his victim. This particular individual even goes so far to say that "the biggest problem" is the al…

How do you know the motivation of this person? Every time one of these stories come up, someone tries to call other people out for rationalizing. It's not rationalizing, it's calling it as they see it: someone being an asshole. If you want blatant sexism, FTA: "no offence, I just don’t relate to girls speaking about the industry at all, I learn better from guys". That's sexism. It's not denial if you don't know the m…

We can call it misogyny, or using misogynist tools and strategies -- the motivation of whoever did this doesn't make that any less true.

Re: Speaking up

#258

Post by nandemo »

pja wrote: post #31
mattdeboard wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone is too polite or concerned with HN decorum to say so but you're a fucking asshole.

We're all just passive-aggressively downvoting that comment into oblivion instead.

IMO that's exactly how it should work. Comment is downvoted, gets grayed out, and then hopefully people don't reply to it.

The graying out is a way of expressing "don't feed this troll". If people start replying and get into a prolonged discussion, what is the point of the graying out in the first place?

Re: Speaking up

#259

Post by lizzard »

mwetzler wrote: post #131
h2s wrote: post #2

Are there any high profile women in this industry who haven't been treated like shit in some way such as this? What a nasty bunch of people we are. Are we (developers) the douchey 80s guy of the 21st century?

On Friday I pitched my company to a room of 150 developers, since my company was a hackathon sponsor. I was the only female speaker out of about 15. Afterwards, a well-known, elite developer asked me if I programmed. When I said yes, he said that made me 50% less attractive. Then he asked me if I cooked and cleaned. To my face. You don't have to be high profile to deal with this stuff. Just being in a room where you'…

Wish I could even be surprised at this.

Join us on #geekfeminism sometime on freenode (if you're not already there) :)

Re: Speaking up

#260

Post by wilkie »

FireBeyond wrote: post #224
mwetzler wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sexism definition: Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex. This was clearly sexism since it was demeaning to the woman and her gender was used as a part of that (e.g. the fact that pictures of naked women were used in the attack). If the same happened to a man, we would probably call it harassment, not sexism, since men at large are not discriminated against based on…

"since men at large are not discriminated against based on their gender" Some examples at random: percentage of males in teaching professions, and/or daycare? Breast cancer funding and research versus prostate cancer funding and research, despite the relative frequency of each? Hint - 1:6 men will get prostate cancer, 1:8 women will get breast cancer. But the National Cancer Institute allows for $1,318 worth of resea…

That's totally a valid point. I wish more men would speak out against this and, honestly, that it is not used to diminish the equally valid point of sexism in technology.

But we have to understand that in those situations it is not oppression. And that is a key point. Men are not oppressed by society when they are discriminated, because by-and-large, men make more money, have more opportunity, stay within their industries longer, are (perhaps due to last point) promoted more often, tend to be selected with a gender bias to speak about their subjects. Women currently get more college degrees in general today, yet the gender pay gap remains. That's evidence of systemic oppression. That's why we can say men at large are not discriminated against.

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