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Speaking up

sazzy.co.uk

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Re: Speaking up

#31

Post by pja »

mattdeboard wrote: post #10
abcd_f wrote: post #3

So apparently, she is a web designer (or a web design agency owner), but it takes an effort to find a link to an actual portfolio. There is the Resources page but it's full of her own photos from every angle. The About page is too full of important aspects of her professional background including how she takes her coffee (apparently 3rd most frequently asked question). I understand that she is the brand and she's pro…

Everyone is too polite or concerned with HN decorum to say so but you're a fucking asshole.

We're all just passive-aggressively downvoting that comment into oblivion instead.

Re: Speaking up

#32

Post by [deleted] »

abcd_f wrote: post #3

So apparently, she is a web designer (or a web design agency owner), but it takes an effort to find a link to an actual portfolio. There is the Resources page but it's full of her own photos from every angle. The About page is too full of important aspects of her professional background including how she takes her coffee (apparently 3rd most frequently asked question). I understand that she is the brand and she's pro…

[deleted]

Re: Speaking up

#33

Post by afarrell »

mattdeboard wrote: post #13
h2s wrote: post #2

Are there any high profile women in this industry who haven't been treated like shit in some way such as this? What a nasty bunch of people we are. Are we (developers) the douchey 80s guy of the 21st century?

Seriously. I roll my eyes at some of the white-knighting that goes when a woman is slighted on the Internet but holy crap I get nervous for my girlfriend who's a talented programmer and about to graduate with a CS degree. Is this kind of bullshit in store for her? Sheesh.

Are you sure you aren't confusing "white knight" for "person who doesn't appreciate seeing other people treated like shit"? I originally thought that phrase meant something like "Claiming to represent someone's position or speak for them when they can very well speak for themselves." But assuming that http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/white-knight is a credible source, that phrase actually refers to dudes who argue against misogyny because they want to get laid. I hope that isn't the sense in which you're using it because there are some gaping flaws in that concept:

- Unless you're all using your real names and on the same campus or convention floor, how does that even work, logistically?

- Treating people with basic levels of respect does not magically make them attracted to you, though it will make them more comfortable hanging around you.

- If the only (or even the most notable) reason someone can think of for trying to argue against misogyny or other flavors of assholiery is to get laid, that person needs to go home and rethink their fundamental values in life. Implying this is true of men generally is pretty misadrist.

I suspect you aren't actually using knowyourmeme's definition, so could you clarify the behavior you're referring to when you say "white-knighting"?

Re: Speaking up

#34

Post by [deleted] »

abcd_f wrote: post #3

So apparently, she is a web designer (or a web design agency owner), but it takes an effort to find a link to an actual portfolio. There is the Resources page but it's full of her own photos from every angle. The About page is too full of important aspects of her professional background including how she takes her coffee (apparently 3rd most frequently asked question). I understand that she is the brand and she's pro…

[deleted]

Re: Speaking up

#35

Post by lifebar »

newhouseb wrote: post #18

Halfway through reading this article I had myself really wishing posts like these would just publicly out the perpetrator instead of referring to them anonymously - unfortunately as I finished the article I realized that she hadn't done so because the perpetrator was never found out. For the cases where there is no question who the perpetrator is - I wonder if it would be beneficial to encourage more public shaming?…

So much wrong with your comment.

"wishing posts like these would just publicly out the perpetrator instead of referring to them anonymously" Bad idea - What if wrong person made public? What if someone was set up? You will have retarded lynch mob running for blood. Example - woman accused young man of rape, police proved he was innocent, lynch mob kills man "because law dodging scum like him should just die".

"public shaming" - bad things must be known publicly, but public shaming is just retarded. Problem with it is, even if you are innocent, you have no defense against public shaming.

"like when a spouse kicks out a cheating partner" - unless that cheating partner is a woman, then it's man that is guilty and should be beaten up for kicking her out of home.

"On the other hand, public shaming at any level _seems_ childish to me, but I can't point out why. Additionally, if someone makes false claims, they can do serious damage very easily." - oh look, in everything you wrote, there is two sentences that makes sense.

Re: Speaking up

#36

Post by lukeholder »

newhouseb wrote: post #18

Halfway through reading this article I had myself really wishing posts like these would just publicly out the perpetrator instead of referring to them anonymously - unfortunately as I finished the article I realized that she hadn't done so because the perpetrator was never found out. For the cases where there is no question who the perpetrator is - I wonder if it would be beneficial to encourage more public shaming?…

I once criticized Sarah on twitter while agreeing with Robert Hoekman when he wrote a blog post about another person in the UX speaking circuit who did not have a huge amount of work behind them to back up the fact that they are up in front of people, teaching them.

I since regretted my comments on Sarah's success. I believe I apologized on twitter (after being called out). I was embarrassed, but have not contacted her since, I just see her on rosters for speaking at various conferences.

Now, when I read this post of hers my heart sank. Not only because it is utterly sickening someone could do this to another person, but that at one stage I was unkind to her online.

What if she suspected me because of my remarks 2 years ago? What if she called my name out as a suspect. My web development career and reputation would be shattered. Now what if someone decides to play detective and look through twitter history and sees my comments and accuse me publicly. Ruined.

Its not that public shaming is childish, its that that such accusations have huge ramifications if false. It's "better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"[0]

This does not mean I hope the person/people involved are not held accountable, it just needs to be handled outside a public internet witch hunt.

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstones_formulation

edit: grammar

Re: Speaking up

#37

Post by lifebar »

mattdeboard wrote: post #10
abcd_f wrote: post #3

So apparently, she is a web designer (or a web design agency owner), but it takes an effort to find a link to an actual portfolio. There is the Resources page but it's full of her own photos from every angle. The About page is too full of important aspects of her professional background including how she takes her coffee (apparently 3rd most frequently asked question). I understand that she is the brand and she's pro…

Everyone is too polite or concerned with HN decorum to say so but you're a fucking asshole.

Just love how well this community can argument their opinions. "Oh someone said something bad about woman, must be asshole!" No, that was good observation and should be up voted.

Re: Speaking up

#38

Post by rimantas »

Please, tell me, how would comments look if someone did the same thing, but for the guy? The sight of a bunch of guys rushing to fight sexism (often without even understanding what sexism is) and solve women's issues for them is amusing. This is not to say, that there are no problems. But the biggest problem I see is a knee-jerk reaction to anything involving gender or race. Sometimes assholes are just assholes and couldn't care less if their victim is women or black person, or whatever. The bunch of self proclaimed righteous knights however fails to see that and then everything becomes sexims and/or rasism thus diluting real problems.

Re: Speaking up

#39

Post by newhouseb »

lukeholder wrote: post #36
newhouseb wrote: post #18

Halfway through reading this article I had myself really wishing posts like these would just publicly out the perpetrator instead of referring to them anonymously - unfortunately as I finished the article I realized that she hadn't done so because the perpetrator was never found out. For the cases where there is no question who the perpetrator is - I wonder if it would be beneficial to encourage more public shaming?…

I once criticized Sarah on twitter while agreeing with Robert Hoekman when he wrote a blog post about another person in the UX speaking circuit who did not have a huge amount of work behind them to back up the fact that they are up in front of people, teaching them. I since regretted my comments on Sarah's success. I believe I apologized on twitter (after being called out). I was embarrassed, but have not contacted h…

Thanks, you helped clarify what I was looking to leave as an open question:

How do we hold individuals accountable without encouraging a witch hunt?

The larger developer community is open and unmoderated and as a result we have no organizational "justice system" to fall back on in order to correct behavior (not that I am proposing this).

Re: Speaking up

#40

Post by gavanwoolery »

Sorry about your treatment. :(

(And here I go into down-vote territory... :D)

Before I say anything, let me say clearly I am not sexist; I am a strong advocate of equal rights (key word: equal).

Some of your attacks can definitely be attributed to sex, but it's bad propaganda just to throw them all in the sexism bucket, or treat sexism like it is the norm. I know several females in the industry who are not afraid of anything, and have never been attacked on the basis of their sex (or even been attacked otherwise). Sometimes people attack just because they don't like the cut of your jib. In other words, it can be tempting to project your experiences on the rest of the industry, but I think as a whole the majority of men are "good guys".

The simple truth is the more you open yourself to the public, the more you open yourself for attack, regardless of sex. You have almost 30,000 followers, so statistically speaking at least a few of them are probably psychopaths and/or sexist. Some of the highest profile tweeters, like Notch, get attacks daily (mostly by angry 13 year olds). My $0.02...

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