241–250 of 342 posts
Are there any high profile women in this industry who haven't been treated like shit in some way such as this? What a nasty bunch of people we are. Are we (developers) the douchey 80s guy of the 21st century?
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If you think the developer community is bad, try advertising / media / sales.
Having worked in both, I actually do not think the developer community is better (or less awful) than the advertising / media / sales community. The former is simply more nuanced and subtle. The sexism in the Ad / Media / Sales world is simply more obvious, unhidden and honest. Both are horrible and grotesque - but to be frank, I think that while there is less respect for women in the Ad / Media / Sales world, there…
I never once hear a DE, SDE, SDET, or any other technical person say anything remotely along the lines of "women suck at programming because they're women." Not once, amongst the hundreds of people I worked with there. That's an anecdote - take it for what it's worth.
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I don't think "we" as a community can or should outright reject people who behave badly. We can only reject (or try to change) their behavior. Let's not forget that 8+ hours a day in front of a little glowing box nearly requires a specific personality type. If people who are bad at dealing with other people are blocked from software development, the field would suffer (a lot). > ...a 22yo guy persistently pursuing a…
The excuse that this person's stalking behavior would be sweet if she were interested is blaming her discomfort/fear on her because she isn't interested, when in reality no "sweet" guy would act in such a way without clear signs of interest. The online hacker/development community's continuous excuses and empathy for members of their own community who behave inappropriately towards women makes this a field where prom…
No, it's not. You misread my comment.
> You didn't even reject the behavior, you justified it.
HN is large enough now that I can't expect you to know that I've never done any such thing, and in fact have said exactly the opposite pretty frequently.
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How do you know the motivation of this person? Every time one of these stories come up, someone tries to call other people out for rationalizing. It's not rationalizing, it's calling it as they see it: someone being an asshole. If you want blatant sexism, FTA: "no offence, I just don’t relate to girls speaking about the industry at all, I learn better from guys". That's sexism. It's not denial if you don't know the m…
> How do you know the motivation of this person? It's irrelevant. If you do sexist things, you are a sexist. Maybe you don't know you're a sexist, but you are.
> Sexism definition: Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.
I'm not arguing that this isn't a terrible, unwarranted attack; I'm arguing against the dilution of the term. Not every attack against a person of another race is racist and not every attack against a women is sexist.
Where is the "basis on sex" in this story (genuine question, i.e. did her gender motivate the attack)? Without this, you can call it many things but not sexist.
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Let me restate that: I think most porn today is sexist, much of it in a manner which is demeaning to women. I also think it is basically irrelevant. Male or female, attacking someone sexually is generally one of the ugliest forms of attack known by humankind.
I certainly don't want to diminish the attack that took place here. The question about porn was just a side subject.
Which is a longish way of saying that, globally, it is so common for women to be treated in a demeaning manner that many women view porn per se as demeaning to women. I do not. But I do think a great deal of porn is done in a fashion which is demeaning.
Hopefully that satisfies your side question in some meaningful manner, hopefully without getting me publically lynched for daring to say it.
Oh, and have an upvote.
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> How do you know the motivation of this person? It's irrelevant. If you do sexist things, you are a sexist. Maybe you don't know you're a sexist, but you are.
Stealing a definition from below: > Sexism definition: Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex. I'm not arguing that this isn't a terrible, unwarranted attack; I'm arguing against the dilution of the term. Not every attack against a person of another race is racist and not every attack against a women is sexist. Where is the "basis on sex" in this story (genuine questi…
Also, note that that definition is not the one that most people who care about this topic use. That would be 'sexual discrimination.' Sexism is a systemic cultural force of sexual discrimination. That said, it's not particularly relevant to what I'm saying either, but I thought I'd mention it.
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Exists != happens systematically. Something like fully 1/3-1/4 of women are harassed or raped during the course of their life. ONE IN FOUR. Can you imagine, one out of every four men you know in tech being stalked, harassed, or abused? While men being stalked is terrible, it simply isn't on the same scale as the stalking of women.
1/4 is just dishonest. Its like saying that 1/4 of ALL children starve to death (which is statistics wrapped to the point of uselessness, even without then claiming that 1/4 of all children of people in IT starves to death). When using statistics, please use some kind of reference and try to include what the shortcomings of the said statistics are. At least start with something like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape…
I'm not claiming that for the statistic for the US at large is 100% representative of the tech community. But unless you have a good reason to believe it to be different, it seems like a reasonable starting point.
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I certainly don't want to diminish the attack that took place here. The question about porn was just a side subject.
Generally speaking, across the globe, female sexuality is framed as something which exists for the pleasure of men. A stronger rebuttal to remarks which objectify a woman sexually is not to be all in a huff but to turn it around and talk about men like they are sex objects. I am a woman. I have done that. It is such a powerful thing to do that if I am not extremely careful, rather than teaching men they should not ta…
I must say I have never noticed this, so I am not sure what to say. I can't really make sense of it either. My impression was sex exists to create babies, not to pleasure men. I don't say that to try to be funny, just to express that it seems a very long way from that to "female sexuality exits to pleasure men".
Or do you mean the use of women in advertising, their sexiness associated with chocolate or cars or whatever? I guess it could be interpreted like that, only I wouldn't have referred to a woman's presentation in a (supposedly) sexy way as her sexuality. With "female sexuality" I thought about what arouses women. Maybe I misunderstood.
My interpretation of women is advertising is simply that men desire women, not that women's purpose is to pleasure men. Actually, isn't it rather the other way round? You want that car because supposedly it helps you get the woman, it seems to be more about pleasing women than men?
Edit: also, my apologies, I am getting tired and HN is probably not well suited to this kind of discussion. I am interested in it, though.
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Seriously. I roll my eyes at some of the white-knighting that goes when a woman is slighted on the Internet but holy crap I get nervous for my girlfriend who's a talented programmer and about to graduate with a CS degree. Is this kind of bullshit in store for her? Sheesh.
I roll my eyes at some of the white-knighting that goes when a woman is slighted on the Internet I don't give a rat's ass what the definition of "white knighting is. I'm calling you out now to be much more specific about what kind of slighting is involved and what you're rolling your eyes at. Give examples. Justify yourself.