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Speaking up

sazzy.co.uk

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Re: Speaking up

#231

Post by Tichy »

Mz wrote: post #228
Tichy wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuse my ignorance, just wondering: is it established that porn is sexist? Are they demeaning to the male actors in porn, too? Or is the underlying value that it is demeaning for a woman to have sex? It seems to me a universal judgement isn't easy to come by?

Most porn so strongly caters to male fantasy that some women turn to gay (male on male) porn and yaoi (a form of male on male gay erotic writing) to meet some of their needs. Porn intended for women is a budding industry. It has to be written and filmed differently. I have seen an interview with a woman director who talked about some of those differences. Most porn is strongly rooted in objectifying women in a way wh…

"Most porn so strongly caters to male fantasy"

That in itself doesn't seem to make it sexist?

"Most porn is strongly rooted in objectifying women in a way which denies their humanity"

Or maybe porn is simply about one, limited aspect of humanity? By chance (might have been YouTube's recommender algorithm) I watched this on Objectification recently: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkUhW41Qpjg

I guess I can settle for "sexist porn is sexist", though - obviously there is a huge range of porn out there... Is a picture of a naked woman sexist, for example?

Re: Speaking up

#232

Post by belorn »

throwaway54-762 wrote: post #192
Tichy wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cases of men being stalked do exist.

Exists != happens systematically. Something like fully 1/3-1/4 of women are harassed or raped during the course of their life. ONE IN FOUR. Can you imagine, one out of every four men you know in tech being stalked, harassed, or abused? While men being stalked is terrible, it simply isn't on the same scale as the stalking of women.

1/4 is just dishonest. Its like saying that 1/4 of ALL children starve to death (which is statistics wrapped to the point of uselessness, even without then claiming that 1/4 of all children of people in IT starves to death). When using statistics, please use some kind of reference and try to include what the shortcomings of the said statistics are. At least start with something like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics> which gives the reader a starting point.

Re: Speaking up

#233

Post by [deleted] »

h2s wrote: post #102
timsally wrote: post #90

Whenever an instance of blatant sexism comes up, an attempt is invariably made to rationalize away the fact that a sexist act has actually occurred. We have had two such attempts made here so far and I expect more. One commentator is attempting to advance the baseless theory that the bully did not care about the sex of his victim. This particular individual even goes so far to say that "the biggest problem" is the al…

Not to mention the conspiracy theorist positing that it might have been a woman posting the fake porn pictures. The mental gymnastics some people will perform to avoid facing the obvious truth are amazing. How can we solve a problem we don't all admit exists?

[deleted]

Re: Speaking up

#234

Post by Mz »

Tichy wrote: post #231
Mz wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most porn so strongly caters to male fantasy that some women turn to gay (male on male) porn and yaoi (a form of male on male gay erotic writing) to meet some of their needs. Porn intended for women is a budding industry. It has to be written and filmed differently. I have seen an interview with a woman director who talked about some of those differences. Most porn is strongly rooted in objectifying women in a way wh…

"Most porn so strongly caters to male fantasy" That in itself doesn't seem to make it sexist? "Most porn is strongly rooted in objectifying women in a way which denies their humanity" Or maybe porn is simply about one, limited aspect of humanity? By chance (might have been YouTube's recommender algorithm) I watched this on Objectification recently: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkUhW41Qpjg I guess I can settle for "…

Let me restate that: I think most porn today is sexist, much of it in a manner which is demeaning to women. I also think it is basically irrelevant. Male or female, attacking someone sexually is generally one of the ugliest forms of attack known by humankind.

Re: Speaking up

#235

Post by davedx »

[deleted] wrote: post #233
h2s wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention the conspiracy theorist positing that it might have been a woman posting the fake porn pictures. The mental gymnastics some people will perform to avoid facing the obvious truth are amazing. How can we solve a problem we don't all admit exists?

[deleted]

She didn't know who it was, did she? I thought that's what it said in TFA.

Re: Speaking up

#236

Post by wilkie »

Tichy wrote: post #170
zamryok wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Furthermore, it seems clear that the way she was attacked was specifically designed to exploit at least the following : - the fact that she is a woman adressing a predominantly male audience (the fake porno) - the ambient objectification of women in society How can that not count as sexist?

Excuse my ignorance, just wondering: is it established that porn is sexist? Are they demeaning to the male actors in porn, too? Or is the underlying value that it is demeaning for a woman to have sex? It seems to me a universal judgement isn't easy to come by?

Yes. Mainstream porn is very sexist. Do you know what a woman is assumed to be? bisexual. Do you know what happens when you look up bisexual porn? You find a man. Think about that. Understand what that means and who the assumed audience is. This assumption permeates throughout the rest of the industry. (Hint: straight-male.)

Re: Speaking up

#237

Post by Torgo »

steveklabnik wrote: post #229
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the act is sexist. Your intent surely matters in how you're pigeonholed, no?

Intent is not magic. The hurt caused is not just mended because you didn't mean it. Maybe this is a better way of putting it: Person A and Person B exist. One of the two means to be sexist, and one does not. They both go around and do the exact same things. What is the difference between A and B, as far as women or our community are concerned? There effectively isn't any. Now, maybe Person not-sexist is more likely t…

It's strategic. It's because we're trying to correct behavior, not just punish offenders. We live in a society together and you can't just push these people out and marginalize them and expect benefits. This has been discussed to death, and the consensus is that you address behavior and not identity because attacking identity accomplishes nothing positive.

Which do you think helps remove the behavior in our society: "that sounded racist, is that really what you meant?" or "you're a racist. I can't believe you said that." One of them gives the person an opportunity to evaluate what they said and how they want to be perceived by others, the other immediately puts them on the defensive and marks you and your cause an enemy to their person.

Re: Speaking up

#238

Post by steveklabnik »

Torgo wrote: post #237
steveklabnik wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intent is not magic. The hurt caused is not just mended because you didn't mean it. Maybe this is a better way of putting it: Person A and Person B exist. One of the two means to be sexist, and one does not. They both go around and do the exact same things. What is the difference between A and B, as far as women or our community are concerned? There effectively isn't any. Now, maybe Person not-sexist is more likely t…

It's strategic. It's because we're trying to correct behavior, not just punish offenders. We live in a society together and you can't just push these people out and marginalize them and expect benefits. This has been discussed to death, and the consensus is that you address behavior and not identity because attacking identity accomplishes nothing positive. Which do you think helps remove the behavior in our society:…

It'd be tactical, not strategic. ;)

> the consensus is that you address behavior and not identity because attacking identity accomplishes nothing positive.

Right! Which is why I care what someone does, not what they say or what they mean. Address the behavior. I'm glad we agree on this.

Re: Speaking up

#239

Post by Tichy »

Mz wrote: post #234
Tichy wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Most porn so strongly caters to male fantasy" That in itself doesn't seem to make it sexist? "Most porn is strongly rooted in objectifying women in a way which denies their humanity" Or maybe porn is simply about one, limited aspect of humanity? By chance (might have been YouTube's recommender algorithm) I watched this on Objectification recently: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkUhW41Qpjg I guess I can settle for "…

Let me restate that: I think most porn today is sexist, much of it in a manner which is demeaning to women. I also think it is basically irrelevant. Male or female, attacking someone sexually is generally one of the ugliest forms of attack known by humankind.

I certainly don't want to diminish the attack that took place here. The question about porn was just a side subject.

Re: Speaking up

#240

Post by JoeAltmaier »

steveklabnik wrote: post #238
Torgo wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's strategic. It's because we're trying to correct behavior, not just punish offenders. We live in a society together and you can't just push these people out and marginalize them and expect benefits. This has been discussed to death, and the consensus is that you address behavior and not identity because attacking identity accomplishes nothing positive. Which do you think helps remove the behavior in our society:…

It'd be tactical, not strategic. ;) > the consensus is that you address behavior and not identity because attacking identity accomplishes nothing positive. Right! Which is why I care what someone does, not what they say or what they mean. Address the behavior. I'm glad we agree on this.

Torgo, give it up, he's determined not to get it.
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