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Speaking up

sazzy.co.uk

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Re: Speaking up

#121

Post by malachismith »

Aaronontheweb wrote: post #47
h2s wrote: post #2

Are there any high profile women in this industry who haven't been treated like shit in some way such as this? What a nasty bunch of people we are. Are we (developers) the douchey 80s guy of the 21st century?

If you think the developer community is bad, try advertising / media / sales.

Having worked in both, I actually do not think the developer community is better (or less awful) than the advertising / media / sales community. The former is simply more nuanced and subtle. The sexism in the Ad / Media / Sales world is simply more obvious, unhidden and honest. Both are horrible and grotesque - but to be frank, I think that while there is less respect for women in the Ad / Media / Sales world, there is more women-hating in the Developer community.

Re: Speaking up

#122

Post by steveklabnik »

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #41

It's somewhat encouraging to read the comments here and note that for a change they are not already overrun by aggressive apologists for the continuing misogyny in software development.

Don't worry, it's getting worse as time goes on.

Re: Speaking up

#123

Post by malachismith »

abcd_f wrote: post #8
tudorw wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how criticising the formatting of the content without discussing the content adds anything. Was there a point you wanted to make ?

I am not convinced that her motives for posting this are genuine. This sort of deeply personal story has no business of being attached to the Resources and the FAQ pages on how to get her speak at your event.

Seriously?!?!?! Ummm.... I'd suggest seeking professional help. It's pretty clear you have some deep-seated issues.

Re: Speaking up

#124

Post by detst »

timsally wrote: post #90

Whenever an instance of blatant sexism comes up, an attempt is invariably made to rationalize away the fact that a sexist act has actually occurred. We have had two such attempts made here so far and I expect more. One commentator is attempting to advance the baseless theory that the bully did not care about the sex of his victim. This particular individual even goes so far to say that "the biggest problem" is the al…

How do you know the motivation of this person? Every time one of these stories come up, someone tries to call other people out for rationalizing. It's not rationalizing, it's calling it as they see it: someone being an asshole.

If you want blatant sexism, FTA: "no offence, I just don’t relate to girls speaking about the industry at all, I learn better from guys". That's sexism.

It's not denial if you don't know the motivation. Why is it so important to label these actions a certain way when we can just call it as it clearly is?

Trying to label everything that may or may not be sexism doesn't help the cause. Most of us know there is rampant sexism. Arguing about this just detracts from the real problem. There are more than enough obvious instances to demonstrate the problem.

EDIT: for the 2 down-voters so far: the point I'm making is that sexism is a major problem but trying to ascribe motivation to something with uncertainty is intellectual dishonesty that does nothing but detract from the real problem.

Re: Speaking up

#125

Post by [deleted] »

mnicole wrote: post #98
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #75

Is there becoming a general consensus on what to do about a problem we are becoming aware is worse than most of us thought? I glean the following from a few of these threads 1. Conferences, conventions, hackathons all should have published "acceptable behaviour" statements, and possibly a red / orange / green card system that everyone understands 2. online examples get red / orange carded though a bitly link posted o…

I read that the card system turned into a running joke at DEFCON (people giving their buddies cards at the slightest insinuation), which could lead to watering down the purpose or making it somewhat of a joke to receive one in a literal sense. Do any other conferences have in-the-moment/non-confrontational methods of calling people out?

[deleted]

Re: Speaking up

#126

Post by bruceboughton »

[deleted] wrote: post #120
h2s wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention the conspiracy theorist positing that it might have been a woman posting the fake porn pictures. The mental gymnastics some people will perform to avoid facing the obvious truth are amazing. How can we solve a problem we don't all admit exists?

[deleted]

Hypothetical is hypothetical. Why not deal with the real instance at hand?

Re: Speaking up

#127

Post by sophacles »

roguecoder wrote: post #83
NoahSussman wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there seems to still be a growing population of women in the community. Just keep in mind that, whatever growth you've observed, the number of women in programming now is much lower than it was in the 1980s. For some historical statistics see http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2011-08-26/opinions/35268...

The percentage of women is lower, but the total number is higher.

So what? Percentage is the statistic that matters in discussions like this. Unless you are suggesting that there is some upper limit on the number of women that can ever be involved in programming at one time.

How does notion work to you - is there some sort of cosmic female hive-mind that determines the quotas of them that can be part of any given activity? Is it some sort of feedback loop so that we as a species are approaching the limit of $MAX_FEMALE_DEVS?

Re: Speaking up

#128

Post by konstruktor »

h2s wrote: post #102
timsally wrote: post #90

Whenever an instance of blatant sexism comes up, an attempt is invariably made to rationalize away the fact that a sexist act has actually occurred. We have had two such attempts made here so far and I expect more. One commentator is attempting to advance the baseless theory that the bully did not care about the sex of his victim. This particular individual even goes so far to say that "the biggest problem" is the al…

Not to mention the conspiracy theorist positing that it might have been a woman posting the fake porn pictures. The mental gymnastics some people will perform to avoid facing the obvious truth are amazing. How can we solve a problem we don't all admit exists?

Why worry about the meaning of the terms you use when there is an opportunity to call somebody who disagrees with you names?

Re: Speaking up

#129

Post by fatbird »

gavanwoolery wrote: post #40

Sorry about your treatment. :( (And here I go into down-vote territory... :D) Before I say anything, let me say clearly I am not sexist; I am a strong advocate of equal rights (key word: equal). Some of your attacks can definitely be attributed to sex, but it's bad propaganda just to throw them all in the sexism bucket, or treat sexism like it is the norm. I know several females in the industry who are not afraid of…

(And here I go into down-vote territory... :D)

The name of the fallacy this demonstrates is "poisoning the well", as in implying that anyone who downvotes you is just afraid to hear the truth, man........

sexism like it is the norm

As we keep discovering, sexism is the norm for women in general and specifically in our industry. Your blindness to this fact is not evidence to the contrary.

I know several females in the industry who are not afraid of anything, and have never been attacked on the basis of their sex (or even been attacked otherwise).

I suspect that if you asked them whether or not this was true, and they trusted you enough to answer honestly (and after reading your blythe dismissal above, I wouldn't), you'd find this is not the case.

Sometimes people attack just because they don't like the cut of your jib.

Can you point to a straight, white male who's suffered the kind of attention Sarah relates, for no other reason than that someone didn't like the cut of his jib?

the majority of men are "good guys"

The majority of men can be good guys generally, and still be guilty of sexist behaviour that's hostile to women, that drives them out of our industry, and that creates a pervasive atmosphere that no one should have to tolerate. Calling out behaviour like this is not a blanket condemnation of us as irredeemably bad guys, and suggesting that it is, is a way of deflecting information that makes us uncomfortable.

Re: Speaking up

#130

Post by zamryok »

timsally wrote: post #90

Whenever an instance of blatant sexism comes up, an attempt is invariably made to rationalize away the fact that a sexist act has actually occurred. We have had two such attempts made here so far and I expect more. One commentator is attempting to advance the baseless theory that the bully did not care about the sex of his victim. This particular individual even goes so far to say that "the biggest problem" is the al…

Furthermore, it seems clear that the way she was attacked was specifically designed to exploit at least the following :

- the fact that she is a woman adressing a predominantly male audience (the fake porno)

- the ambient objectification of women in society

How can that not count as sexist?

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