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Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

english.martinvarsavsky.net

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Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#81
post #65

"the problem with this is that it is harder to convince a group of Europeans that they are out to conquer the world in their field. It is cultural." It's called World War I and II, and having learned a thing or two. "Conquering the world" in itself is a phrase only an utter brute would think, much less actually brag about. Why can you not get to know the world, and cooperate with it? What are you scared of? Why not b…

As well as some wars, there is also a long history of imperialism and actually trying to take over the world.

Which is my point exactly. I didn't say Europe is "better", if anything it was more savage; but that had high costs and many lessons. The US still thinks you can dominate the world and get away with it. Well nuh-uh.

Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#82
"state mandated severance pay packages... a direct attack to start ups"

While it's true that many startups fail, I wouldn't go so far as to say severance pay is an attack. You can fire someone with two weeks notice in Spain, paying 33 days of severance for every year paid (used to be 45). AND take home salaries are usually lower.

What is done in practice, to compare worker compensations across countries, is to factor that into the salary equations, it means that workers are a lot more expensive than what the take home salaries might imply, but consider:

Employee A at an US startup has a take home salary of US$ 75.000 will cost US$ 100.000 or so to the employer per year.

Employee B at a Spanish startup has a take home salary of US$ 56.000 (43.000 euros), and it will cost US$ 100.000 or so to the employer per year :) , factoring in severance, healthcare, social security and other benefits.

As jordinl and others stated, most European countries have a three-month trial period for employees as well (edit: and it can be renewed, making the hypothetical 6-months-in non-performer as easy to fire as in the US).

So, an European employee is usually NOT more expensive than an U.S. employee, it requires different considerations (and setting aside money for severance & stuff). It probably is a lot more bureaucratic, but that's it (on the other hand, there are a lot less lawsuits). If the reason for moving into Europe was cheaper salaries, bad luck, but if the reason was an unexplored market, it should work out.

Edit: I do agree that there are some strong laws against beginning your startup in a garage, but the physical location shouldn't be a problem.

About starting a new company: you can buy a pre-made company for 150 euros in Madrid, and probably the rest of Europe, with most of the paperwork solved for you. There are plenty of programs for helping new startups get off the ground (depends on the country, some are more progressive like Finland)

Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats the problem with generalizations about Europe, there has been some progress towards harmonisation but lots of things vary hugely from country to country. For every statement you have to add "except in Belgium", "except in Germany" etc, and he mostly just added the "except in UK" ones.

There are some valid generalizations about europe. There are some mandated minimum holidays for example (4 weeks IIRC) and the tendency to have stronger employee rights. The work ethos is different as well, europeans tend to regard extreme outliers in wealth as extreme outliers, less as role models. The problem is that this article takes some assumptions that might be true for spain and uk and tries to sell them as '…

The work ethos is different as well, europeans tend to regard extreme outliers in wealth as extreme outliers, less as role models.

I think part of these stems from the fact that some of the extreme outliers in europe (in terms of wealth or political power) often inherited their wealth. Whereas the USA has the attitude that "This is America, the land of oppertunity, where an illiterate immigrant can step off the boat in ellis island and if he works hard enough, he can own a skyscraper in Manhatten". Whereas, in Europe, there are many people who inherited their wealth. There is also a much more noticable class system.

Strong employee rights comes from blue collar people who, being aware of the class system, do not believe that they will ever be mega rich, and hence fought for more rights & laws for themselves.

(Not to say either 'meme' is correct, I'm just pointing out what people think, which informs what they think.)

Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#84
post #52
post #41

What strikes me about this article is the utter lack of understanding . It is a highly subjective, very politicized and ideologically tainted description without any kind of understanding, and some of the attempts at interpretation of cultural and legal differences are either plain wrong or deliberately misrepresented. It's an anti-European rant, nothing more. Here's a great gem for example: "To work hard, to work lo…

You say that, but when I was working in the Netherlands, my colleagues and I were repeatedly told that we could not stay to work in the office past normal working hours. Even with impending deadlines that for the life of the company could not be moved, which is why we were working the long hours in the first place. To put it in perspective, at one point we were even told to work from home if needed, but to not tell t…

But then the opposite side is "ea_spouse" in the USA....

Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#85
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is not working long hours a bad thing?

The point is that you can work as many hours as you choose.

The danger is that many people will have very little power to make a real choice, resulting in more powerful businesses being taking advantage of them.

That's the attitude that informs how & why that law was written.

Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#86
post #21

Funny how he refers to Europe as a whole country... > "Not only are forced severance pay packages a problem because most start ups fail and they still have to pay them but also because start ups are constantly trying out people and the concept of trying out people is very costly in Europe" I've been an unpaid intern in UK. My first full-time job in Spain clearly stated that I was on trial for the first three months a…

He also doesn't seem to understand that there are labour contracts and civil contracts. The former are the heavily regulated kind, the latter are like US contracts - you can put whatever you like in them. So it's entirely possible, if you wish, to draft a contract saying Person will work for 6 months at startup A in order to produce result X and unless they turn out incompetent (or the company goes under, etc), they'…

This probably depends on the juristiction, but I strongly doubt it's that easy to get around employee law like that. Often the laws are written to basically say "Person A is an employee if they do a type of work for pay etc. etc.", regardless if they have a "labour contract" vs "civil contract".

If it was that easy, then all companies would do it.

Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#87
post #25
post #14

I don't live in a country with the kind of employee protection rules as in Germany, but the article still comes off as a rant against employee protections. Can't afford to treat your employees like humans? Want to give them big bonuses and then fire them the following year so they can't pay the mortgage on that house they put a deposit down on with that bonus? Don't want to shell out a bit of money on decent offices,…

> Can't afford to treat your employees like humans? Want to give them big bonuses and then fire them the following year so they can't pay the mortgage on that house they put a deposit down on with that bonus? Don't want to shell out a bit of money on decent offices, and rather shove them in some little basement somewhere? Isn't this something the market will mostly take care of, especially in tech where people can ea…

Isn't this something the market will mostly take care of

Only if there is a perfectly functioning market. Which there often isn't in many cases. Hence the laws.

Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#88

> In most of Europe there is no concept of personal bankruptcy That's wrong. It only takes longer in most european countries. For example in Germany it takes 6 years.

I'm not certain about it but I think debts from criminal offenses are not cleared on personal bankruptcy. Sozialversicherungsbetrug (not paying your employees social security) and tax evasion are criminal offenses for the manager of a company so they'd not be cleared. However, if you start up a company with employees you'd want a limited liability company of some form anyways, so personal liability only extends to cr…

I'm not certain about it but I think debts from criminal offenses are not cleared on personal bankruptcy

Not all debts can be cleared by bankruptcy in the USA AFAIK. I don't think you can clear college tutition fees with bankrupcty.

Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#89

> In most of Europe there is no concept of personal bankruptcy That's wrong. It only takes longer in most european countries. For example in Germany it takes 6 years.

Agreed. Ireland is 7 years I think (though it's being reduced). UK might be 1 year.

To think of it from another perspective, harder bankruptcies mean that your debtors are not able to escape from their debts as easy. Surely that's a good thing for a business?

Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#90
post #75

Even though most of the dismissal comments here are fair and true, I find that this article contains some true gems: > When starting a company in the US, informality rules, we all know the HP story that HP was started out of a garage. Now in Europe work is so regulated that you can’t start a company out of a garage because you can’t legally work in a garage. > A friend of mine was fed up with an employee who worked p…

Stock options give employees a sense of ownership and responsibility in the company, which is a powerful thing.

Also, Stock options are mostly at least in Silicon valley an excuse for a company to get away with paying less to their employees. Another excuse is to use them as a way of saying "It is your company so suck it up and do X" where X might be work 18 hours a day to anything. Classic case of misleading vividness [1] of stellar performance of a fraction of the startups causing this phenomenon to spread.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misleading_vividness

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