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Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

english.martinvarsavsky.net

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Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#61

Post by danmaz74 »

Svip wrote: post #28
davidw wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can't afford to treat your employees like humans? Want to give them big bonuses and then fire them the following year so they can't pay the mortgage on that house they put a deposit down on with that bonus? Don't want to shell out a bit of money on decent offices, and rather shove them in some little basement somewhere? Isn't this something the market will mostly take care of, especially in tech where people can ea…

I somewhat agree; you basically need a middle ground. It shouldn't be too easy to fire people, but neither should it be too hard. I think what we have in my country (.dk) hits that middle ground fairly decently.

As a matter of fact, here in Italy Denmark is often cited as a very good example to follow regarding work regulations.

Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#62

Post by GFischer »

james4k wrote: post #52
rickmb wrote: post #41

What strikes me about this article is the utter lack of understanding . It is a highly subjective, very politicized and ideologically tainted description without any kind of understanding, and some of the attempts at interpretation of cultural and legal differences are either plain wrong or deliberately misrepresented. It's an anti-European rant, nothing more. Here's a great gem for example: "To work hard, to work lo…

You say that, but when I was working in the Netherlands, my colleagues and I were repeatedly told that we could not stay to work in the office past normal working hours. Even with impending deadlines that for the life of the company could not be moved, which is why we were working the long hours in the first place. To put it in perspective, at one point we were even told to work from home if needed, but to not tell t…

In my country (Uruguay), labor laws have a mandated maximum of overtime. If a work inspector finds your company violationg that, the company is liable for some serious fines.

Also, employees can sue for unpaid overtime.

This makes companies extremely serious about employees leaving on time. In the company I work for, the computers automatically shut down at 6 p.m. (we're supposed to leave at five thirty).

Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#63

Post by danmaz74 »

davidw wrote: post #26
Svip wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also don't buy the notion that Europeans are generally resentful towards entrepreneurs.

A ... well, I'm not going to get specific, as he's probably not too hard to locate via facebook or something, but a person I know through my wife was ranting about how all entrepreneurs are dishonest thieves at dinner the other day. Granted, this was an after-a-few-bottles-of-wine chat at the table, not a serious, reasoned opinion from someone who I do respect, but still, it's not an uncommon opinion here in Italy.

Unfortunately, this is often true here in Italy: The main reason, imho, is that rules are often so difficult to follow that selection is working against the more honest entrepreneurs...

Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#64

Post by justincormack »

growse wrote: post #56
james4k wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say that, but when I was working in the Netherlands, my colleagues and I were repeatedly told that we could not stay to work in the office past normal working hours. Even with impending deadlines that for the life of the company could not be moved, which is why we were working the long hours in the first place. To put it in perspective, at one point we were even told to work from home if needed, but to not tell t…

Just because you once had a job where your employer told you the law said a particular thing, doesn't mean the law actually says that particular thing. I've worked long weeks before without any issue between myself and my employer (in the UK). Most people I converse with/encounter would probably say the same thing. All the EU working time directive ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_Time_Directive ) says is that…

I believe that only applies in the UK, from Wikipedia "in the United Kingdom, it is possible to opt out of the 48 hour working week and work longer hours". However in the rest of Europe that seems not to be the case, although the exact details of the hours and how they are structured depends on national legislation.

Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#65

Post by rmc »

neumann_alfred wrote: post #46

"the problem with this is that it is harder to convince a group of Europeans that they are out to conquer the world in their field. It is cultural." It's called World War I and II, and having learned a thing or two. "Conquering the world" in itself is a phrase only an utter brute would think, much less actually brag about. Why can you not get to know the world, and cooperate with it? What are you scared of? Why not b…

As well as some wars, there is also a long history of imperialism and actually trying to take over the world.

Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#66

Post by rmc »

objclxt wrote: post #11
skreech wrote: post #7

Article is ridden with errors, mostly based on a faulty premise. Europe is not a country. Europe isn't even the EU. Laws, regulations, attitudes and tax rates vary widely. If you want to do a startup in Europe, choose a country first and then read up.

I would tend to agree: one of the biggest mistakes he makes is assuming EU wide directives are applied equally. The UK, for example, negotiated a clause meaning employers can have employees opt-out of the working time directive (which governs the number of hours in a week employees can work).

UK employees can opt out of part of the working time directive, the 48 hrs max working week ban. But other parts still apply, like minimum holidays per year

Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#67

Post by justincormack »

jordinl wrote: post #21

Funny how he refers to Europe as a whole country... > "Not only are forced severance pay packages a problem because most start ups fail and they still have to pay them but also because start ups are constantly trying out people and the concept of trying out people is very costly in Europe" I've been an unpaid intern in UK. My first full-time job in Spain clearly stated that I was on trial for the first three months a…

I think Spain has changed the rules on severance pay recently, and new employees do not get it.

In the UK it has recently been ruled illegal in many circumstances to pay interns less than the minimum wage (basically if they do real work), so if you feel like it you can ask your ex-interner for the money. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/oct/19/interns-payouts-min...

Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#68

Post by yxhuvud »

Svip wrote: post #10
Svip wrote: post #6

I am not a fan of how he uses 'Europe' when he often means Spain and France. He clearly lacks an experience with Nordic countries (i.e. Scandinavia + Finland and Iceland), because a lot of what he says does not apply here. Working overtime is perfectly legal in Denmark for instance, if the employees prefer it (forcing them can be illegal). The reason is that in Denmark (and other Nordic countries), labour regulations…

Also the thing about lawyers being cheap is accurate, but this is because in Europe (except the UK and Ireland), we use a Civil Law system, whereas the US (whom borrowed it from the UK) uses a Common Law system. The basic difference is that in a Civil Law system 'the law is the law'; court rules cannot change law practice. In addition, you cannot use previous court decisions to argue in a court of law. You can use th…

There are different Civil Law systems though. Some, based on Roman law, is very focused on the letter of the law while others like the Scandinavian law system are focused on the intention behind the laws.

Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#69

Post by anonymous »

jordinl wrote: post #21

Funny how he refers to Europe as a whole country... > "Not only are forced severance pay packages a problem because most start ups fail and they still have to pay them but also because start ups are constantly trying out people and the concept of trying out people is very costly in Europe" I've been an unpaid intern in UK. My first full-time job in Spain clearly stated that I was on trial for the first three months a…

He also doesn't seem to understand that there are labour contracts and civil contracts. The former are the heavily regulated kind, the latter are like US contracts - you can put whatever you like in them. So it's entirely possible, if you wish, to draft a contract saying Person will work for 6 months at startup A in order to produce result X and unless they turn out incompetent (or the company goes under, etc), they'll be offered a labour contract.

Whether anybody would feel comfortable signing such a thing though, is a different matter.

Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#70

Post by nevvvermind »

rickmb wrote: post #41

What strikes me about this article is the utter lack of understanding . It is a highly subjective, very politicized and ideologically tainted description without any kind of understanding, and some of the attempts at interpretation of cultural and legal differences are either plain wrong or deliberately misrepresented. It's an anti-European rant, nothing more. Here's a great gem for example: "To work hard, to work lo…

That was the exact same sentence that changed my whole attitude; and I'm a tolerant guy. It's a pity that "work hard" and "work long hours" are separated only by a comma.

PS: I'm still "infected" by this article: http://www.salon.com/2012/03/14/bring_back_the_40_hour_work_...

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