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Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

english.martinvarsavsky.net

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Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#51

Post by masklinn »

Svip wrote: post #6

I am not a fan of how he uses 'Europe' when he often means Spain and France. He clearly lacks an experience with Nordic countries (i.e. Scandinavia + Finland and Iceland), because a lot of what he says does not apply here. Working overtime is perfectly legal in Denmark for instance, if the employees prefer it (forcing them can be illegal). The reason is that in Denmark (and other Nordic countries), labour regulations…

> I am not a fan of how he uses 'Europe' when he often means Spain and France.

And even then, he tends to be more wrong than right (overtime isn't illegal in France, as far as I know, although mandatory overtime is; and depending on the status of the employees overtime pay may or may not exist: broadly-speaking blue-collar workers are on the clock and paid overtime, white-collar workers are on "260 days" contrats an won't get paid extra if they work 20h/day of their own volition. They'll likely have to get paid (or get extra time off) if they have to work more than 5 days a week or during holidays)

> Also here; it is not incredibly difficult to fire people. But as an employer, you need a good reason

And there usually is a delay of some sort, although in tech it can often be waived through mutual agreement.

> the trial period (usually first 3 months)

Which, depending on the country, can be renewed once.

> firing people is more easy than usual.

Trial period is essentially equivalent to "right to work" US states: either side can terminate employment at will.

Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#52

Post by james4k »

rickmb wrote: post #41

What strikes me about this article is the utter lack of understanding . It is a highly subjective, very politicized and ideologically tainted description without any kind of understanding, and some of the attempts at interpretation of cultural and legal differences are either plain wrong or deliberately misrepresented. It's an anti-European rant, nothing more. Here's a great gem for example: "To work hard, to work lo…

You say that, but when I was working in the Netherlands, my colleagues and I were repeatedly told that we could not stay to work in the office past normal working hours. Even with impending deadlines that for the life of the company could not be moved, which is why we were working the long hours in the first place. To put it in perspective, at one point we were even told to work from home if needed, but to not tell them about it. I truly don't think there is any cultural misinterpretation there, this was pure legal paranoia. At least on this particular issue you pointed out.

Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#53

Post by michaelfeathers »

Nice article, at least as a heads up for people. But, there are two areas that he did not go into. One was possibility of building a business around relationships with contractors rather than employees. I can imagine there being laws that would make that hard also. The other is that maternity/paternity leave is big consideration also. While I think they are great in many contexts, I've heard from business owners in Northern Europe that they can be particularly painful for small businesses.

Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#54

Post by IsTom »

rickmb wrote: post #41

What strikes me about this article is the utter lack of understanding . It is a highly subjective, very politicized and ideologically tainted description without any kind of understanding, and some of the attempts at interpretation of cultural and legal differences are either plain wrong or deliberately misrepresented. It's an anti-European rant, nothing more. Here's a great gem for example: "To work hard, to work lo…

How is not working long hours a bad thing?

Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#55

Post by venomsnake »

Nursie wrote: post #48
venomsnake wrote: post #32

Firing is not hard. When my country telecom was privatized and the contract limited the amount of layoffs they could legally make - they just put every parasite in his own room with no internet, no pc-s, totally forbidden to use personal devices and gave them no tasks. They were also under strict monitoring for misusing the company time(reading on work), phones and being strict on arrival/departure. The ones that did…

In the UK that would be interpreted as 'constructive dismissal' and you could be spanked pretty hard for that at an employment tribunal. Is it that hard to get rid of someone within the rules?

They were under contract to not cut more than 3K jobs per year, but had to get rid of almost 20K persons.

Saw what constructive dismissal is - how is this making the employee life unbearable - he is getting full salary for doing nothing and nobody is harassing him. He is just not allowed to communicate with the rest of the company.

Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#56

Post by growse »

james4k wrote: post #52
rickmb wrote: post #41

What strikes me about this article is the utter lack of understanding . It is a highly subjective, very politicized and ideologically tainted description without any kind of understanding, and some of the attempts at interpretation of cultural and legal differences are either plain wrong or deliberately misrepresented. It's an anti-European rant, nothing more. Here's a great gem for example: "To work hard, to work lo…

You say that, but when I was working in the Netherlands, my colleagues and I were repeatedly told that we could not stay to work in the office past normal working hours. Even with impending deadlines that for the life of the company could not be moved, which is why we were working the long hours in the first place. To put it in perspective, at one point we were even told to work from home if needed, but to not tell t…

Just because you once had a job where your employer told you the law said a particular thing, doesn't mean the law actually says that particular thing.

I've worked long weeks before without any issue between myself and my employer (in the UK). Most people I converse with/encounter would probably say the same thing. All the EU working time directive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_Time_Directive) says is that an employer can't force you to work more than 48 hours a week. If you want to work 23.5 hour days, 7 days a week, and an employer who's willing to pay for that, knock yourself out.

Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#57

Post by aluhut »

james4k wrote: post #52
rickmb wrote: post #41

What strikes me about this article is the utter lack of understanding . It is a highly subjective, very politicized and ideologically tainted description without any kind of understanding, and some of the attempts at interpretation of cultural and legal differences are either plain wrong or deliberately misrepresented. It's an anti-European rant, nothing more. Here's a great gem for example: "To work hard, to work lo…

You say that, but when I was working in the Netherlands, my colleagues and I were repeatedly told that we could not stay to work in the office past normal working hours. Even with impending deadlines that for the life of the company could not be moved, which is why we were working the long hours in the first place. To put it in perspective, at one point we were even told to work from home if needed, but to not tell t…

There are huge differences between the countries. I have two friends working for two different us gaming companies doing basicly the same job. One in France and one in Germany.

The one in France has a strict work schedule. If he has to do some special works like traveling for a fair or similar, he will be rewarded with freetime and/or money. Working late? Rewarded.

The guy in Germany has a real problem. He is working late in the night on daily bases but he is payed only for the 40h stated in his contract. Everybody knows about it. Everybody is doing it. The workload demands it also. Nobody is talkig about it. Sure he could sue them but hey, they don't tell you to do it.

Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#58

Post by Nursie »

venomsnake wrote: post #55
Nursie wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK that would be interpreted as 'constructive dismissal' and you could be spanked pretty hard for that at an employment tribunal. Is it that hard to get rid of someone within the rules?

They were under contract to not cut more than 3K jobs per year, but had to get rid of almost 20K persons. Saw what constructive dismissal is - how is this making the employee life unbearable - he is getting full salary for doing nothing and nobody is harassing him. He is just not allowed to communicate with the rest of the company.

Making them sit in a room for hours at a time with no work, monitoring them for any activity they use to distract themselves so you can use it to fire them - that's basically abusive, verging on mental torture. The company being under contract is no excuse for abusive conduct.

Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#59

Post by justincormack »

Xylakant wrote: post #42

There's some light and some shadow in this article. I can't tell about southern europe, but most of this does not apply in germany - even the parts that are specifically about germany. There are recommendations about how a work-place should look like but they are mostly common sense [1] and not mandated by law, at least not in the IT Business. There is a law about workplace safety [2] but that's like 12 pages long an…

Thats the problem with generalizations about Europe, there has been some progress towards harmonisation but lots of things vary hugely from country to country. For every statement you have to add "except in Belgium", "except in Germany" etc, and he mostly just added the "except in UK" ones.

Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#60

Post by mibbitier »

IsTom wrote: post #54
rickmb wrote: post #41

What strikes me about this article is the utter lack of understanding . It is a highly subjective, very politicized and ideologically tainted description without any kind of understanding, and some of the attempts at interpretation of cultural and legal differences are either plain wrong or deliberately misrepresented. It's an anti-European rant, nothing more. Here's a great gem for example: "To work hard, to work lo…

How is not working long hours a bad thing?

The point is that you can work as many hours as you choose.
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