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On non-rooted Android 17, ADB uninstall of system apps fails

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Re: On non-rooted Android 17, ADB uninstall of system apps fails

#71

Post by subscribed »

Elfener wrote: post #18
Cider9986 wrote: post #8

GrapheneOS has minimal, private [1] system apps so you don't have to debloat anything yourself. Manual debloating is not a good solution at the user level. Some system apps are being overhauled, so that's something to look forward to. Gallery will be [2] based on ReFra [3]. [1] Except phone and messaging but that's the cell network. GrapheneOS recommends Signal/Molly or SimpleX instead. [2] https://nitter.net/Graphen…

GrapheneOS or other custom ROMs don't solve the actual problem that you can't just buy a smartphone and install any operating system like you can with an actual computer, despite technically being one. Also, GrapheneOS supports device attestation (the non-google kind at least), which is still ridiculous as such systems have no benefit to people, only to technofeudalist corporations.

If this is your stance it's trivial to have your cake and eat it. You can easily build your own GrapheneOS based image, which will then be unable to use attestation (because your own keys you'll use for the secure boot won't match).

And I'm not trying to be snarky, if that's the only thing, it's solvable right now. Everything else will work.

And concerning "you can't just buy a device and install is" - android and iOS are far more secure than any desktop os, and both pixel/iPhones are far more secure than any computer (or any other phone as well (we'll get the third one next year)). GrapheneOS actually explains "whys" in their hardware support faw section.

Generally maintaining an os is a hard work, so that perhaps explains why there's not many mature offerings.

Re: On non-rooted Android 17, ADB uninstall of system apps fails

#72

Post by hparadiz »

jfyi wrote: post #58
hparadiz wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The crypographic flow that allows payments to work is straight up pub/priv key encryption with one time use tokens. It's not something you can hack. As soon you see the token it's already been used and thrown away. So whatever nonsense about decompiling literally doesn't matter.

So your professional opinion is that the attack surface of mobile banking apps is limited to tokenized payments? Honestly, I'd be appalled if tokens were routed through my banking app. There is no reason the local client needs that data.

My professional opinion is that APKs can be de-compiled regardless and that has nothing to do with tokenized payments themselves which are like you said handled through server-server communications at the payment processor level. Your phone simply sends a one time use token to authorize the transaction.

Re: On non-rooted Android 17, ADB uninstall of system apps fails

#73

Post by gruez »

justonenote wrote: post #51
nekusar wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And Graphene OS is also anti-user by being tremendously rude about NOT providing root and using the same tired "suck-u-rity" crap Google and Apple also use. If you're smart enough to buy a phone that supports GrapheneOS, AND install it, yeah you should have root. And tools like XPrivacy and plugins allow control of subsystems like GPS spoofing and lying to apps.

If you are technical and want root its very easy to patch a build of GrapheneOS to include whatever mechanism you want. You can even automate this to continue to receive updates. I think the decision of GrapheneOS to maintain the attestation features and not providing user root is what gives it a fighting chance of being accepted as legitimate 3rd choice. See: Revolut and others adding GrapheneOS keys and trusting th…

>If you are technical and want root its very easy to patch a build of GrapheneOS to include whatever mechanism you want. You can even automate this to continue to receive updates.

You don't even need to patch it, AFAIK. You can just install magisk, which is how you're supposed to get root on LineageOS as well.

Re: On non-rooted Android 17, ADB uninstall of system apps fails

#74

Post by hparadiz »

sophrosyne42 wrote: post #69
hparadiz wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Device attestation is how you can use private keys you don't actually have access to. It has a lot of value to literally anyone who wants to store tokens or use one time authentication codes. Linux folks need to implement the full stack and offer an open alternative to payments, secrets, and tokens. In the age of LLMs there is no excuse. It is annoying as hell that I can't buy a System76 or Framework laptop with a fi…

Framework has a fingerprint sensor. [1] [1] https://frame.work/products/fingerprint-reader-kit?v=FRANTD0...

It needs to come stock on every Linux laptop from now going forward period. Like you expect a screen to come with your machine. Every Mac has one now and I'm not going back to typing my password in every single time.

Re: On non-rooted Android 17, ADB uninstall of system apps fails

#75

Post by gruez »

mayama wrote: post #10
jauntywundrkind wrote: post #2

Noose keeps tightening, the war on General Purpose Computing, the war against users owning devices intensifies. How utterly fallen. We'll see what happens with the proposed ADB changes. Lots of no one asking for this, lots of people describing how badly their phone use will be greviously impacted, and seemingly very little discussion/engagement/justification. Maybe they'll fire the bullet anyways. https://issuetracke…

I said the same thing about waiting for 24hrs before being able to use adb to install apps. About 24hrs being not a big blocker and that it was good for security. It's all about boiling the frog slowly, 24hrs is the start and then they'll add more restrictions once users accept that. Ultimately goog would like to have the system as much locked down as apple or even more.

>I said the same thing about waiting for 24hrs before being able to use adb to install apps.

I thought it was 24 hours OR use adb?

Re: On non-rooted Android 17, ADB uninstall of system apps fails

#77

Post by K0balt »

achierius wrote: post #62
K0balt wrote: post #55

Seriously question; why is the answer to this not a phone that can just run GNU/Linux? Is it just the lack of application support? I mean, you’ll have blobs, but at least at the os level you’ll have options? Can’t you run an android sandbox in Linux? Docker phone? I’m sure I’m missing something here, but what?

Desktop operating systems != phone operating systems. You need to have a lot of support for things like "sleep apps you're not using right now" or you'll burn through battery. Not to mention that we tend to expect a lot of functionality which only works when the OS enables it, e.g. the sort of app-to-app coordination enabled by Android's App Intents. You certainly could build something like that on top of DBus, but,…

This seems to be a case of “I want to use services from companies that are built on business models hostile towards my sovereignty, privacy, and rights! ; I can’t believe hostilecorp wont let me work around their hostileOS?”

I mean, it really sucks that so many people have made themselves dependent on this crap, but at some point you just have to stop buying the poison or stop complaining that it makes you sick.

The poison to utility ratio has gotten so high that it’s getting increasingly attractive just to ditch the whole thing. You either have to draw the line or accept that there is no line, and that you will yield any degree of agency in exchange for convenience.

For so many people, big corporations decide what they will buy, where they will eat, who they will date, how they will interact, what they believe, where they will go, how they will get there.

Multiple choice is not choice. It is the illusion of choice in a fully packaged life.

Re: On non-rooted Android 17, ADB uninstall of system apps fails

#78

Post by mosura »

inigyou wrote: post #68
mosura wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need to parse the word mentality in context. The root problem here is the EU is culturally broken, and until some grand disaster will simply decline ever further with everyone involved wondering why no one else is doing anything about it.

Why don't we export some better culture to Europe then? That would be a good place and now would be a good time for Americans to flee to.

You couldn’t epitomize the problem more if you tried.

Re: On non-rooted Android 17, ADB uninstall of system apps fails

#79

Post by jfyi »

hparadiz wrote: post #72
jfyi wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your professional opinion is that the attack surface of mobile banking apps is limited to tokenized payments? Honestly, I'd be appalled if tokens were routed through my banking app. There is no reason the local client needs that data.

My professional opinion is that APKs can be de-compiled regardless and that has nothing to do with tokenized payments themselves which are like you said handled through server-server communications at the payment processor level. Your phone simply sends a one time use token to authorize the transaction.

You were the one that brought up payments though. Nobody else specified. They just said it could be hacked, which you seem to agree with.

Re: On non-rooted Android 17, ADB uninstall of system apps fails

#80

Post by mosura »

ptero wrote: post #37
mosura wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do what the Chinese did and fork Android. The EU has enough tech talent to do it, but the political and managerial class lack both the strategic ability or the willingness to adequately reward the effort it would take, almost certainly preferring to, again, outsource the concern, and then be shocked Pikachu later. Anyone doubting this should see how BMW think about their in car software. And that is for a supposedly…

If the govvies (any govvies; there is nothing specific to EU here) drive that process of forking a large, powerful, universally used system you will end up with more surveillance, not less. Because kids, because pornography, because terrorism, whatever. This is too powerful an option for control freaks to resist.

And this is why everyone gives up on doing anything while standing around complaining that no one does the right thing.

What is so pernicious about the EU approach is the enthusiasm and efficiency with which it stops anyone from doing anything, while simultaneously attempting to regulate what everyone else in the world can do. If they put even a small part of that energy into encouraging the right thing to happen they would be in such a better place it is insane.

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