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The Fedora 45 Sausage Factory

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Re: The Fedora 45 Sausage Factory

#41

Post by xorcist »

trentor wrote: post #37
setopt wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven’t followed the news. Sounds like IBM is bad news for Fedora long term?

I don't want to be hyper critical but was there ever a project that got better after being acquired by IBM?

While probably true, I'm not sure how much Fedora can be owned really. We should give credit where credit is due though: IBM has, together with Intel, Red Hat, and a few others, been very supportive of the Linux ecosystem since early on. Their scalability work, their GPLing of code, and upstreaming of said code, did a lot for people to look at Linux seriously. There are obviously people inside IBM who understand this stuff. So there should be hope.

Re: The Fedora 45 Sausage Factory

#42

Post by c-hendricks »

petee wrote: post #36
rogerrogerr wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m out of the loop on this, not trying to ignite a holy war, but what’s the gist of the anti-systemd stance?

Imho its not necessary for the average user, adding too much complexity. For example, I tried to config gpsd to use another port, nothing would work; systemd quietly overrides gpsd's configfile and required additional systemd incantations to change what should have been easy. And the man pages are a mess And journalctl makes me want to pull my hair out; just let me grep a regular file - discovering namespaces is a ni…

Personally I think moving away from the hodgepodge of scripts, giving a consistent interface for people to use, extend, etc, is kinda necessary for the average user to have a decent system. It can often be complex to make things simple.

I'm also not sure how systemd could override a config file, because systemd does not write the unit files on a system. Wouldn't that be on the maintainer, distro, or other methods of getting the unit file?

Re: The Fedora 45 Sausage Factory

#43

Post by c-hendricks »

einpoklum wrote: post #39
dralley wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the post I responded to >> The proof this site is misnamed is that a post criticizing systemd gets downvoted, probably by people who have never questioned why an [[ init system ]] needs to become half the operating system. So no, I didn't bring it up. I find the whole argument kind of dumb anyway. People talk about this as if it was a violation of the "Unix Philosophy" when Unix and BSD are developed even mor…

> If you want to use non-systemd tools, use a non-systemd distro, that is your choice. No, it is not my choice, because I'm not talking about my PC at home, but rather what organizations use - commercial companies, universities, schools, NGOs etc. And also what users are taught to handle and work with. But it's not even that: I want systemd to be _dropped_ as a default part of the main Linux distributions. I want onl…

> No, it is not my choice, because I'm not talking about my PC at home, but rather what organizations use - commercial companies, universities, schools, NGOs etc

How much of a say do you have over the minutiae choices of various organizations anyways?

> I want only the people who explicitly prefer systemd, to use systemd, and not the rest

And some those people that prefer systemd happen to have a lot of influence on the choices for what init system a distro uses.

Maybe we could build something that lets us convert between different init systems to ease the maintenance burden. We'd need a structured format to start from, I wonder what options are out there...

Re: The Fedora 45 Sausage Factory

#44

Post by petee »

c-hendricks wrote: post #42
petee wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imho its not necessary for the average user, adding too much complexity. For example, I tried to config gpsd to use another port, nothing would work; systemd quietly overrides gpsd's configfile and required additional systemd incantations to change what should have been easy. And the man pages are a mess And journalctl makes me want to pull my hair out; just let me grep a regular file - discovering namespaces is a ni…

Personally I think moving away from the hodgepodge of scripts, giving a consistent interface for people to use, extend, etc, is kinda necessary for the average user to have a decent system. It can often be complex to make things simple. I'm also not sure how systemd could override a config file, because systemd does not write the unit files on a system. Wouldn't that be on the maintainer, distro, or other methods of…

It sets up the network for services, but it's been a minute since so I don't remember the specifics, just that I needed to make a new file in some deep folder to tell it to use a non-standard port.

To me its just more complexity, and not super consistent, which is fine for enterprise, or automation. I'm used to openbsd, regular shell init scripts go in /etc/rc.d, and my logs are in /var/log. Can't get much simpler than that, but i understand its limitations, and Linux is certainly more of a hodgepodge

Edit: found my notes, first was discovering the "gpsd" & "gpsd.socket" namespaces existence, then needing to do "systemd edit --full gpsd.socket" because without "--full" it makes an override file that didn't actually override anything...my note quality declined rapidly after that due to anger

Re: The Fedora 45 Sausage Factory

#45

Post by unethical_ban »

einpoklum wrote: post #30
unethical_ban wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's absolutely off-topic to moan about systemd on every post about Linux. If there was a complaint about how systemd complicated builds and tests in a specific way the commenter could name, that'd be valid. Just finger-wagging is tiring after how many, 10 years?

We moan about Microsoft's horrid choices with its operating choices, already for, what, let's say 40 years now? 45? When they cut it out, start using standards, stop forcing crap onto their users (not all of Windows is crap; a lot of it is quite solid), stop with the spying and surveillance, and of course make the code FOSS, then we'll stop the moaning. It's similar for systemd. It's a poor architectural choice and i…

I think the differences are several:

* The opinion that systemd is bad is more controversial here than the opinion that Microsoft is an unethical company with intentionally invasive software.

* There are Linux distributions that do not use systemd

Re: The Fedora 45 Sausage Factory

#46

Post by Vegemeister »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #38
28304283409234 wrote: post #33

Meanwhile the bluewashing seems to be keeping a steady pace. https://techrights.org/n/2026/07/22/IBM_is_Not_Done_Destroyi...

Techrights are hard to take seriously, the site's author has such a bad case of that polemic tendency that he lost a libel case because he wouldn't stop harassing someone ( https://caselaw.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ewhc/kb/2025/3063 ).

In the UK, a country known for its lack of press freedom.

And the plaintiff was Matthew Garret, who has a past record of changing the words of other people's comments on his blog. The allegations of sockpuppetry are not inconsistent with his character.

That said, I recognize that the prose on that website is highly schizo-coded, so it should probably be considered unreliable on that account.

Re: The Fedora 45 Sausage Factory

#47

Post by root-parent »

amlib wrote: post #35
root-parent wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before systemd I had Redhat machines with 3 to 4 years of uptime, and now you need to restart Linux after updates....while Windows people rarely and they laugh at you...

If you use the command line to do the update there is no need to reboot, however, the issues that the offline update is trying to solve still stands. Some programs can crash when all their files are suddenly swapped for new ones. I've seen multiple linux systems bork themselves during an update because the update itself caused the desktop session to crash, which caused the update process to be interrupted just as it…

>> If you use the command line to do the update there is no need to reboot

Completely untrue.

And before systemd, updating sshd or cron usually meant restarting that one daemon. With systemd, core updates can affect PID 1, logind, journald, udev, user managers, socket activation and cgroup state as one dependency graph.

Before, its was replace a library and restart the few daemons using it. Now the same library may be loaded by system services, user services and systemd components, making a clean partial restart harder to verify.

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