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The Fedora 45 Sausage Factory

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Re: The Fedora 45 Sausage Factory

#31

Post by dralley »

einpoklum wrote: post #29
dralley wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The systemd init isn't half an operating system any more than the coreutils "ls" utility is half a userspace. The systemd project has many different components but they're independent, they are not all literally part of the init system.

You're the one who brought up init systems. Like you said, systemd is a huge project; an init system is just one of its components. > he systemd project has many different components but they're independent They _are_ dependent. It's one codebas, and even if you somehow separated it - you would still only have systemd-specific, systemd-dependent replacements for _actual_ independent components. They all depend on sys…

This is the post I responded to

>> The proof this site is misnamed is that a post criticizing systemd gets downvoted, probably by people who have never questioned why an [[ init system ]] needs to become half the operating system.

So no, I didn't bring it up.

I find the whole argument kind of dumb anyway. People talk about this as if it was a violation of the "Unix Philosophy" when Unix and BSD are developed even moreso in the same way - the init system is sitting in the same repo as the libc, the kernel, and the entire rest of the OS. Linux is alone amongst operating systems in making core system components swappable like to that degree in the first place. It's fine to like that kind of flexibility, but a bit silly to act as though that approach is fundamentally superior. If you want to use non-systemd tools, use a non-systemd distro, that is your choice. Just quit whining about 99.9999% of the other software users on the planet not catering to it.

Re: The Fedora 45 Sausage Factory

#35

Post by amlib »

root-parent wrote: post #24
rogerrogerr wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m out of the loop on this, not trying to ignite a holy war, but what’s the gist of the anti-systemd stance?

Before systemd I had Redhat machines with 3 to 4 years of uptime, and now you need to restart Linux after updates....while Windows people rarely and they laugh at you...

If you use the command line to do the update there is no need to reboot, however, the issues that the offline update is trying to solve still stands.

Some programs can crash when all their files are suddenly swapped for new ones. I've seen multiple linux systems bork themselves during an update because the update itself caused the desktop session to crash, which caused the update process to be interrupted just as it was modifying some crucial files, thus rendering the system unbootable.

Re: The Fedora 45 Sausage Factory

#36

Post by petee »

rogerrogerr wrote: post #11
root-parent wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And social media and fast food...does not mean its good for you...

I’m out of the loop on this, not trying to ignite a holy war, but what’s the gist of the anti-systemd stance?

Imho its not necessary for the average user, adding too much complexity.

For example, I tried to config gpsd to use another port, nothing would work; systemd quietly overrides gpsd's configfile and required additional systemd incantations to change what should have been easy. And the man pages are a mess

And journalctl makes me want to pull my hair out; just let me grep a regular file - discovering namespaces is a nightmare

Re: The Fedora 45 Sausage Factory

#37

Post by trentor »

setopt wrote: post #34
28304283409234 wrote: post #33

Meanwhile the bluewashing seems to be keeping a steady pace. https://techrights.org/n/2026/07/22/IBM_is_Not_Done_Destroyi...

I haven’t followed the news. Sounds like IBM is bad news for Fedora long term?

I don't want to be hyper critical but was there ever a project that got better after being acquired by IBM?

Re: The Fedora 45 Sausage Factory

#38

Post by TazeTSchnitzel »

28304283409234 wrote: post #33

Meanwhile the bluewashing seems to be keeping a steady pace. https://techrights.org/n/2026/07/22/IBM_is_Not_Done_Destroyi...

Techrights are hard to take seriously, the site's author has such a bad case of that polemic tendency that he lost a libel case because he wouldn't stop harassing someone (https://caselaw.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ewhc/kb/2025/3063).

Re: The Fedora 45 Sausage Factory

#39

Post by einpoklum »

dralley wrote: post #31
einpoklum wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're the one who brought up init systems. Like you said, systemd is a huge project; an init system is just one of its components. > he systemd project has many different components but they're independent They _are_ dependent. It's one codebas, and even if you somehow separated it - you would still only have systemd-specific, systemd-dependent replacements for _actual_ independent components. They all depend on sys…

This is the post I responded to >> The proof this site is misnamed is that a post criticizing systemd gets downvoted, probably by people who have never questioned why an [[ init system ]] needs to become half the operating system. So no, I didn't bring it up. I find the whole argument kind of dumb anyway. People talk about this as if it was a violation of the "Unix Philosophy" when Unix and BSD are developed even mor…

> If you want to use non-systemd tools, use a non-systemd distro, that is your choice.

No, it is not my choice, because I'm not talking about my PC at home, but rather what organizations use - commercial companies, universities, schools, NGOs etc. And also what users are taught to handle and work with.

But it's not even that: I want systemd to be _dropped_ as a default part of the main Linux distributions. I want only the people who explicitly prefer systemd, to use systemd, and not the rest.

As for the "dumb argument" etc. - what you're saying is that because the different BSD distros are monolithic, then not only should Linux become that way, but - all of the lower-level Linux userspace, above the kernel, should just be handed over to the benevolent oligarchy of the systemd people.

That's a bad idea, both in principle, and also in practice, due to the innumerable problematic design and implementation choices systemd has taken - which developers and sysadmins/power-users did not mandate, agree to or support.

Re: The Fedora 45 Sausage Factory

#40

Post by oblio »

shalg wrote: post #17
rogerrogerr wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m out of the loop on this, not trying to ignite a holy war, but what’s the gist of the anti-systemd stance?

It’s at odds with the philosophy of do one thing and do it well. Its monolithic feature set pushes out smaller contributors and leads to increased reliance on a singular package. This tends to self reinforce. I also use systemd in my current distro so not sure where I stand on this but it’s a fair concern.

Everything on modern OSes is at odds with the Unix philosophy ("do one thing well"), including *nix.

ls has more flags than a Soviet military parade.

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