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Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

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Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#381

Post by LoganDark »

budsniffer952 wrote: post #352
LoganDark wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are both ML that is not AI, and AI that is not ML. For example, if you pick them manually, decision trees can be AI but not ML. Video game character behavior is a trivial example. Eliza for example is also not ML, but could be called AI. Likewise, there is ML that is not AI. Such is debatable, because you could always argue that using machine-learning on anything results in intelligence. The way I see it, thing…

[flagged]

for example, mob behavior in Minecraft is often described as AI. It's nothing more than some simple state tracking, task prioritization, pathfinding, etc. and absolutely none of it has been through autodiff.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#382

Post by pstuart »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #298
pstuart wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the former, and conceptually with latter. But we've seen people vote against their best interests because of the promise of destroying those who've they've been taught to hate. Contemporary US immigration "policy" is a case in point.

No, we haven't. People do not "vote against their interests", as much as commenters online love to claim that. What actually happens is that they believe what they vote for will advance their well-being, and you disagree with their assessment. That's a very, very different thing. The idea that there are any significant number of people out there deliberately hurting themselves for hate's sake is a complete myth. Peop…

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear about "vote against their interests".

Of course nobody's going to vote for a candidate who doesn't promise what they want. But if the promises are lies and never honored, and instead the winner does things that leads to making things worse for them, they have effectively voted against their own interests.

Very little of what Trump promised was related to the common voter's best interests:

* lowering prices and inflation

* ending the war in Ukraine (in one day, to boot!)

* "fix" US trade

Most of the other stuff was ideological red meat, much of which he actually has done, but I'd argue that it wasn't in the interest of the common person in the end (tariffs fucked up US manufacturing and businesses, and in the end was revoked because it was illegal).

Meanwhile, he started a new war with no clear way out, has ballooned the national debt, destroyed the US's relationships with our allies (likely permanently), etc. In the interest of brevity I'm just putting some relevant nuggets, but the list is quite long.

If you look at his promises and platforms, a majority of it was a revenge and hate spree, and the hunger for that hate was actively indoctrinated into his base.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#383

Post by isityettime »

delusional wrote: post #305
isityettime wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Things like this are (sadly) common (and age-old) problems with automation and computerization. (For a vivid account of this phenomenon, check out the novel _Close to the Machine_, by Ellen Ullman.) As executives and analysts increasingly use the "AI" craze to push automation and computerization (and layoffs) generally , even aside from AI proper, it should not be surprising that the individuals and groups opposing t…

I am very interested in your reading of Close to the Machine. I read it myself a couple of years ago and found it a wonderful telling of the early days of tech, with overtones of the "technology workplace" that were still very true to this day. I did not pick up on any commentary on automation or computerization, outside of the general critique of bureaucratic systems that alienate you from the outcomes of your labor…

It's in the opening chapter, when the narrator talks about her experience working on a software system for AIDS patients and their medical care providers. The critique is not just of bureaucracy per se— the same bureaucracy, institutionally, exists before and after the implementation of the software system. The difference is that the informal judgment of caseworkers is converted from something fuzzy and flexible into fixed fields, permissions, enumerable and particular relationships, etc., and ultimately results in fewer people being able to access those resources they need.

I remember the novel relating similar themes more generally, which has shaped how I even think of the title after reading the book. Being "closer to the machine" isn't just about working at a lower level; it's about the way working with computer systems reshapes the people developing for them and the people using them. It's about how even "cushy" software companies lean into, hire for, and draw out obsessive, dissociative traits: the included lunches, the laptop you can bring home and continue to work on, the places to nap or crash on-campus.

Maybe a very dark reading, and certainly colored by some of my own experiences in tech and where I was at in my career when I read it. But for me there's absolutely this sense that the need and desire to be "close to the machine" is also something that lures us away from ourselves and from each other.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#384

Post by btown »

lostlogin wrote: post #17
btown wrote: post #7

> Nurses are instructed to stick to a script on phone calls and give no more than two to three pieces of advice, Capulong and other nurses said, which means they may sometimes need to decide whether to withhold advice or face a performance evaluation hearing. > Another nurse speaking on condition of anonymity said “AI did not understand our job and would grade us wrong all the time.” It's always worth remembering Goo…

> Nurses are instructed to stick to a script on phone calls and give no more than two to three pieces of advice So stupid. If you had ever made a phone call to a patient, or their family member, you’d soon realise how bad this is. You need to talk to the patient and something a family member too. Be too hasty and you cause more harm than good.

For clarity, those > quotes are from the article, and I'm explicitly advocating against that approach!

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#385

Post by vkou »

Quarrelsome wrote: post #349
vkou wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Today its a mixed bag of corpo hate, anxiety about the future, inequality and traditional class warfare, combined with the typical technical ignorance. Are there no actual problems with what it promises/how we're expected to use it at work/how it is used against us by people who use it at work? Is it just anxieties and feelings, that aren't actually grounded in anything? Everything's getting better for everyone, no…

Nobody knows what's actually going to happen, so we assume the worst. It's like how we like to shit on Amazon without appreciating how some people have benefitted from being able to side-step the gatekeepers of old by being able to go straight to market themselves without needing bricks and mortar. Humanity, fear and distrust are best of friends. That's what I'm calling out, I have no interest in playing Nostradamus.…

> I think OP is a good case in point where people are blaming AI but really the issue here is the human in the loop, the person implementing these abhorrent policies that happen to be powered by AI.

I don't care if the torture nexus itself is not at fault, now that it has been created, it has enabled its owner to do a bunch of novel bad things, and it deserves a large part of the blame.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#386

Post by kulahan »

gyanchawdhary wrote: post #99
nojito wrote: post #13

Kaiser has some of the best healthcare outcomes in the country/world due to their protocols and how good they are in ensuring adherence to them. It’s going to be very improbable that these statements are true.

I 100% agree.

Why advertise you agree with something objectively wrong lmao

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#387

Post by kulahan »

fn-mote wrote: post #204
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Classic "1 star review because UPS lost my delivery" metric. I'd guess most people have had a situation where there's a corporate problem, the support person you talk to literally doesn't have the tools or the agency to fix it, but then you're asked to rate their performance on whether or not they solved the issue, with no option to say "Actually they did their best but this isn't their fault."

> with no option to say "Actually they did their best but this isn't their fault." In this case, the lack of such an option is obviously a flaw in the assessment system. How to fix that? Major political issue, I suppose.

>Major political issue, I suppose

Can’t believe nobody noticed this was a joke

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#388

Post by giardini »

nradov wrote: post #372
grayhatter wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It doesn't matter whether you misunderstand LLM summary or LLM "misunderstands" you – there are real risks involved, and you wouldn't want them to weigh on your conscience if they were to materialize. "fun" fact, a number (some? many? all?) of the LLM speech to text models will editorialize or hallucinate words for you, to make your speech fit the pattern it expects. I don't think it's appropriate to use a model th…

In a medical setting we first have to be clear about whether the LLM is acting as a transcriptionist or a scribe. Those are different roles. A transcriptionist merely writes down everything the clinician says verbatim, with perhaps a bit of formatting to fit a standard template. Speech recognition software has been used for transcription since before LLMs even existed. Sometimes a human transcriptionist will review a…

I saw someone whose doctors were misled by this "transcriptionist vs scribe" difference in an ER situation. The LLM was listening and recording as the doctor asked questions and the patient answered. PT had suffered a falling episode. ER doctor asked if pt had any warning (e.g., was dizzy, faint, or unbalanced before fall). Pt said no. Later when reading final discharge report with pt we noticed that the LLM had inserted that the pt "experienced dizziness and then fell" which completely contradicted the pt's actual words.

Since then pt has had to re-explain to multiple doctors how the ER report was incorrect, to their usual MD skepticism. So, for now, I figure LLMs are for shite. Maybe in another 15 years...

And it pays to read everything on a medical report before leaving the facility.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#389

Post by kennywinker »

tyfon wrote: post #317
kennywinker wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is still a categorical difference between how they are being used. Specifically analytic vs generative. Generative AI (LLMs and image generators) are the ones people have issues with - pretty much nobody cares about ML processing for analysis.

> pretty much nobody cares about ML processing for analysis. I work in a bank and a can tell you that the customers absolutely hate ML when it rejects their loan application. Over the pond in the US, I have an impression that the fico score is not exactly popular either, but I have no first hand experience.

People have absolutely hated their loan applications being rejected since before ML was being used anywhere near it.

As evidence, let me cite the “computer says no.” sketch from 2004

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#390

Post by fingerlocks »

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #329
AdieuToLogic wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The “overlap” is that all machine learning is AI ... "All machine learning" is not AI, as k-means clustering and linear regression, amongst others, are very much ML without qualifying as AI algorithms.

Technically linear regression is statistics rather than ML, but I feel like the GNU/Linux people whenever I point that out.

Not even technically. I had to do linear regressions by hand, pencil and paper, in college stats course 20 years ago. No machine necessary
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