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Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

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Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#291

Post by BeetleB »

isatty wrote: post #249
ai_fry_ur_brain wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally will not use a provider who uses llm tools. I know it makes me and my coworkers less careful and lazier. Qualities I dont want in a health care providor. Ive actually moved primary care physicians over this once already, found the oldest guy I could who barely knows how to use a laptop but spends a bunch of extra time with me.

Likewise. I basically - will not see a “provider”. A doctor (MD/DO) only please. - will not see a doctor who uses LLM tools (or therapists for that matter) - Make it abundantly clear that if you do then we’re not a match. - Will pay significantly more/go out of my way for for this.

In a similar vein: Will not go to a doctor who is a DO and not an MD.

We all have our biases.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#292

Post by BeetleB »

ai_fry_ur_brain wrote: post #153
derekdahmer wrote: post #115

I RFTA and the majority of the complaints are about call center metrics and the pressure to ration care. These are real concerns about misuse of metrics, but not AI. The AI empathy thing was a 2024 pilot that was discontinued. FWIW my wife works for Kaiser and finds a lot of value in the the medical LLM tools available to her. She tells me being able to do live translation, summarize notes, and quickly get comprehens…

I personally will not use a provider who uses llm tools. I know it makes me and my coworkers less careful and lazier. Qualities I dont want in a health care providor. Ive actually moved primary care physicians over this once already, found the oldest guy I could who barely knows how to use a laptop but spends a bunch of extra time with me.

This translates to "I'd rather get the traditional types of medical errors instead of the modern types of medical errors."

Better the devil you know ...

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#293

Post by BeetleB »

terminal-bloom wrote: post #132
abeindoria wrote: post #100

That is surprising. My primary care provider had a different response. Basically he said something in line of "You wouldn't believe how much of a relief it has been. In your last visit, you saw me typing everything you were saying, right? I don't have to. I can listen to you and take very specific notes as necessary as opposed to focusing on both typing and listening to you at the same time. It has bought my stress l…

I’d be more willing to consent to these tools if I had confidence that the underlying software truly was built to honor my privacy. Too many AI tools are built hastily for me to give my doctor’s (visibly awful) software the trust.

This is a challenge for me.

On the one hand, pre-LLM there was plenty of software out there for medical use, and they had to be HIPPA compliant, etc. I've worked with people who used to write that SW (they hated the job because HIPPA was so strict). The rational side of me is saying I shouldn't be biased against these, and that there's no way they would relax the requirements.

On the other hand, the emotional side of me screams: It's LLMs! Huge privacy concern!

I try to let the rational side win. I've always given consent. Especially because I liked my doctor pre-LLMs, and it seems silly to suddenly mistrust him and go to a doctor I don't know at all.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#294

Post by scottjg »

doodlebugging wrote: post #18

This problem with workplace AI interfering with nurses ability to manage healthcare obligations for their clients is not confined to Kaiser. UHC has also introduced the AI surveillance tools and are using it to do similar things.

Kaiser is a vertically integrated healthcare provider. They provide insurance like UHC but they also require you, for the most part, to be treated in Kaiser medical facilities.

How can UHC use AI in the same way? They're an insurance company. They're not administering the actual healthcare?

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#295

Post by TylerE »

soared wrote: post #263
Loughla wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you still get doctors for primary care? Our local hospital is hiring nothing but nurse practitioners now. They're amazing in a support role, but not equipped as well for primary care roles.

I’d rather have an NP 10 times out of ten for primary care

If you're more or less healthy they're fine. When things start to go sideways my experience is that they get out of their depth pretty quick.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#296

Post by BeetleB »

whimsicalism wrote: post #201
Loughla wrote: post #167

The nurses at our local rural hospital are tagged and tracked wherever they go on the hospital campus. Time spent in one spot is part of their review. I wondered why they zip in and out of the rooms, when just a few years ago they would spend fifteen to twenty minutes in each room. The patient load hadn't grown. The number of nurses has gone up, not down. So I'm blaming the stupid metric on their evaluations for a wo…

> The patient load hadn't grown. The number of nurses has gone up, not down. Healthcare utilization, number of unique patients, amount of care per patient has all gone up. American has a massive overutilization problem driving cost but is unwilling to be honest with itself about it.

AKA the "Be your own advocate and demand more testing!" crowd.

Although Kaiser tends to repel such patients (they'll happy say "No" and tell you to find some other provider). The bulk of complaints I've heard about KP in California boil down to "They wouldn't give me a referral to a specialist".

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#297

Post by BeetleB »

gorszon wrote: post #162
none_to_remain wrote: post #145

They want you to blame "AI" like Claude jumped up and decided to start hassling nurses, not individuals in management

If you read the quotes from the union, they blame the management, and they cite workplace survillience as one issue, wich is happened to be a machine learning tool. So, of course the article talks about AI, because thats the trendy buzzword.

> and they cite workplace survillience as one issue, wich is happened to be a machine learning tool.

That tool was a trial that they put away (but may come back).

The rest of the stuff all existed pre-LLMs and isn't even machine learning (time per call).

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#298

Post by bigstrat2003 »

pstuart wrote: post #246
romanhounds wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

identity politics is used as a distraction to class politics, if you materially make peoples lives better they will vote for you.

I agree with the former, and conceptually with latter. But we've seen people vote against their best interests because of the promise of destroying those who've they've been taught to hate. Contemporary US immigration "policy" is a case in point.

No, we haven't. People do not "vote against their interests", as much as commenters online love to claim that. What actually happens is that they believe what they vote for will advance their well-being, and you disagree with their assessment. That's a very, very different thing.

The idea that there are any significant number of people out there deliberately hurting themselves for hate's sake is a complete myth. People reach for it because it feels good to imagine that your opponents are hate-warped idiots, but there is not a shred of evidence to support such a claim. When you actually talk to people (and not just assume you know what's in their heads), you find out that they, like you, are just trying to do good in an imperfect world.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#299

Post by ruszki »

AdieuToLogic wrote: post #226
granzymes wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “overlap” is that all machine learning is AI, but not all AI is machine learning.

> The “overlap” is that all machine learning is AI ... "All machine learning" is not AI, as k-means clustering and linear regression, amongst others, are very much ML without qualifying as AI algorithms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_intelligence

As it is taught literally every single AI/machine learning course on the world, machine learning is very much part of AI completely since inception.

I don’t completely understand why it is this important for you to argue against this completely defined fact.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#300

Post by inopinatus »

LoganDark wrote: post #243
inopinatus wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I never heard… You should listen better. The University of Edinburgh had an entire Department of Artificial Intelligence when I was an undergrad there in the 1990s, and one of the things it researched was machine learning.

I don't see how including machine learning under the artificial intelligence umbrella counts as calling machine learning AI.

My local supermarket places the almond milk in the dairy section, and some people find this very upsetting.
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