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Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

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Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#201

Post by whimsicalism »

Loughla wrote: post #167

The nurses at our local rural hospital are tagged and tracked wherever they go on the hospital campus. Time spent in one spot is part of their review. I wondered why they zip in and out of the rooms, when just a few years ago they would spend fifteen to twenty minutes in each room. The patient load hadn't grown. The number of nurses has gone up, not down. So I'm blaming the stupid metric on their evaluations for a wo…

> The patient load hadn't grown. The number of nurses has gone up, not down.

Healthcare utilization, number of unique patients, amount of care per patient has all gone up.

American has a massive overutilization problem driving cost but is unwilling to be honest with itself about it.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#202

Post by magicalist »

willmadden wrote: post #143
datsci_est_2015 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Increasingly true in Trump’s America. It’s somewhat the point of democracy to maintain a limit on rent seekers’ and wealth extractors’ power on the political process. It should come as no surprise that the individuals who have grifted and extorted their way into power are also fiercely antidemocratic. The xenophobes and bigots that have hitched their wagons are equally deplorable.

[flagged]

> This thread is a perfect example of why HN has a "no politics" guideline

From a quick perusal, your account appears to only comment on politics.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#203

Post by rkagerer »

terminal-bloom wrote: post #132
abeindoria wrote: post #100

That is surprising. My primary care provider had a different response. Basically he said something in line of "You wouldn't believe how much of a relief it has been. In your last visit, you saw me typing everything you were saying, right? I don't have to. I can listen to you and take very specific notes as necessary as opposed to focusing on both typing and listening to you at the same time. It has bought my stress l…

I’d be more willing to consent to these tools if I had confidence that the underlying software truly was built to honor my privacy. Too many AI tools are built hastily for me to give my doctor’s (visibly awful) software the trust.

Indeed, I always turn this down as I don't consent. If you had a thorough read of the major providers' Terms of Service, you wouldn't either.

It's a shame, if they had an AI transcription tool that kept everything in-house I'd be much more comfortable with it. Or perhaps some kind of zero-knowledge cloud-based product where I hold the keys.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#204

Post by fn-mote »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #133
BeetleB wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me suggest the following: Ask the nurses if they want the customer to rate them. A significant fraction of the calls they answer are patients shouting at them because of: - Long wait times - They don't like their doctor - They don't like the advice they're given (sorry, but we're not going to book you as a high priority appointment if all you can tell me is you have a headache. Sorry, we're not going to prescribe…

Classic "1 star review because UPS lost my delivery" metric. I'd guess most people have had a situation where there's a corporate problem, the support person you talk to literally doesn't have the tools or the agency to fix it, but then you're asked to rate their performance on whether or not they solved the issue, with no option to say "Actually they did their best but this isn't their fault."

> with no option to say "Actually they did their best but this isn't their fault."

In this case, the lack of such an option is obviously a flaw in the assessment system.

How to fix that? Major political issue, I suppose.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#205

Post by granzymes »

LoganDark wrote: post #192
jonahx wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It unequivocally is AI. It's just not LLM-powered. The rising LLM = AI equivalency is unfortunate.

It's machine learning, which has overlap with AI but is not completely equivalent.

The “overlap” is that all machine learning is AI, but not all AI is machine learning.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#206

Post by granzymes »

eru wrote: post #184
thatfrenchguy wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cardiac events from Apple Watches is not “AI” though

It would have been, 20 years ago.

We call things AI until they start working. See also: robots (your washing machine is a robot, but it works so you don’t think of it that way).

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#207

Post by LoganDark »

fn-mote wrote: post #197
LoganDark wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never heard people calling machine learning "AI" until large language models made it trivial to market it as such. Like, I remember back when Netflix, for instance, was going around advertising how machine learning (not AI) powers their recommendations.

Ed: I disagree. My recollection is that machine learning was routinely sold as “AI” even when it obviously wasn’t. (IBM’s Watson was good at Jeopardy but not real medical applications.) This isn’t exactly the same, but nothing in the book Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence would be considered AI today.

You must be thinking of a different machine learning. All the on-device machine learning, backend machine learning, OCR, etc. was all called "machine learning" before LLMs. Yes, the field of artificial intelligence still existed, often used machine learning, and called the result "AI". But Apple would call keyboard prediction machine learning. Microsoft would call OCR machine learning. YouTube called machine transcription machine learning. Google called camera image enhancement machine learning.

Microsoft now calls everything AI (actually mostly "Copilot"). YouTube now calls everything AI (including genuine LLMs and generative features, but also everything it used to call machine learning). Google now calls everything AI (including everything it used to call machine learning). Apple is seemingly the only one immune.

My argument is not that no one ever used "AI" to refer to a product that utilized machine learning, but rather that the term of art in the industry for machine learning itself was actually "machine learning", not "AI", until LLMs took over and made it "AI".

You would not pull a library off the shelf for "AI", it would be for machine learning. You would not implement and perform "AI", but machine learning. Even central parts of the AI ecosystem like PyTorch advertise as being for "deep learning", which is a subset of machine learning. Not "AI".

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#208

Post by forgetfreeman »

pstuart wrote: post #175
inigyou wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On this particular issue both sides are identical. On other issues they are not.

On corporate whoredom? Absolutely. My pushback is that now is not the time for both-sides-ism. It needs to be addressed but most voters are poorly informed or vote their emotions and that talking point needs to go in the back pocket for later, if there is one. I get your point, and the other one stating that Democrats are not "the left", but they are the the least worst option that a 2 party system offers. The game i…

"My pushback is that now is not the time for both-sides-ism"

Of course, and that line of reasoning has consistently failed at the polls since it was deployed as a readguard attempt to bolster Clinton's failed presidential campaign. Like, how many times does the DNC have to stick a fork in this particular outlet before it becomes transparent that this line of rhetoric simply doesn't produce the desired results?

Not only is it absolutely time, it is well and truly past time to underline the functionally identical economic policies of both parties, how the economic turmoil this causes drives identity politics and political division in this country, with a clear eye towards bringing an end to all of that through any means available.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#209

Post by fn-mote »

drknownuffin wrote: post #154
ak217 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this whole discussion cracks me up. I have a number of direct experiences with Kaiser nurses. They repeatedly got into arguments with doctors in front of me, tried to countermand doctors' instructions, ignored their patients, and complained to each other about their patients while they were right there. Repeated unprofessional behavior with no discernible change after trying to address it. My take is that the K…

To one degree or another, this is endemic among nurses. It's part of a broader cultural element: nursing programs have entrenched a culture of nurses vs. doctors. There are literally questions on their licensing exam to the effect of "which of these orders from a doctor should you refuse to enact?" (rather than, say, "which of these orders should you contact the doctor to seek clarification on?" or some other collabo…

I think this is an unfair take.

The necessity of teaching nurses that doctors orders are not sacrosanct comes from the bitter experience of doctors giving orders that are wrong.

Asking for clarification is great, but doctors can be very reluctant to hear. The bottom line is that the nurse must not do certain things and the certification exam is there to make sure they know it.

Think of it in relation to the “anybody can stop the assembly line” part of quality control.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#210

Post by pstuart »

defrost wrote: post #194
romanhounds wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

will you give up identity politics for the deplorables vote?

Non-US PoV - US identity politics as an actual threat to panic and pearl clutch about seems to be largely a creation of the US right. Actual US identity expression "issues" (visible drag queens, actually trans people, sports questions) seem to be small number small beer problems that should fall under US principles of "We let Nazi's march, so why not Furries" ?

> an actual threat to panic and pearl clutch about seems to be largely a creation of the US right.

"woke" has been a goldmine for the Right. Who needs policy when fear, panic, and anger get the voters in those booths? After all, drag queens and trans people are scary -- think of the children!

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