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Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

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Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#91

Post by forgetfreeman »

datsci_est_2015 wrote: post #61
inigyou wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power is based on wealth extraction, not merit.

Increasingly true in Trump’s America. It’s somewhat the point of democracy to maintain a limit on rent seekers’ and wealth extractors’ power on the political process. It should come as no surprise that the individuals who have grifted and extorted their way into power are also fiercely antidemocratic. The xenophobes and bigots that have hitched their wagons are equally deplorable.

I'ma keep it creamy with you, both parties have had the kind of political majority required to clamp down on the corporatization of our society, and neither have so much as paid lip service to doing so. You want to be mad at the current administration by all means there's fertile ground, but don't waste anyone's time blaming them for a situation that's been decades in the making with both major political parties pushing in tandem to realize it.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#92

Post by avaer »

neaden wrote: post #3

If you think using a machine to evaluate how well a human is showing empathy is a good idea, you probably shouldn't have any position of power.

Maybe we should replace those people in power with machines that show empathy.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#93

Post by kxrm »

BeetleB wrote: post #12
neaden wrote: post #3

If you think using a machine to evaluate how well a human is showing empathy is a good idea, you probably shouldn't have any position of power.

If you employ a few hundred nurses, how exactly would you evaluate how well they show empathy? You can't rely on asking the customer. When they're upset (they often are in these calls), they'll lean towards the negative regardless. I don't know how well these AIs evaluate, but if they're even a little bit good, it makes sense to use it to screen for outliers, then have a human listen to those outliers and judge.

I am quite heavily in AI, and I would say I am pro AI. However this use-case for AI is putting AI in the wrong position. AI should be in service to all humans. An administrator building out a middle management KPI based on AI is a misapplication of AI.

Hospital systems are incentivized to avoid the real problems with healthcare. People want timeliness and they want quality care which hospital systems are not incentivized towards in the US. The incentives are profit, which given budgets means corners cut.

Triaging is an opaque system to the patient. It's an important process to doll out finite resources but it also very frustrating to be told, "soon" when you've been waiting 15 hours to see someone. Frankly, if I were King for a day, the first thing I would do is break up the monolithic hospital systems and build out more urgent care.

I would also try to find a way to facilitate transferring less critical patients from ERs to urgent care centers. Right now a hospital won't take the risk, especially if you are sitting in waiting room because beds are full. You can't easily punt a patient because them leaving would be against medical advice.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#94

Post by ak217 »

malfist wrote: post #15
BeetleB wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you employ a few hundred nurses, how exactly would you evaluate how well they show empathy? You can't rely on asking the customer. When they're upset (they often are in these calls), they'll lean towards the negative regardless. I don't know how well these AIs evaluate, but if they're even a little bit good, it makes sense to use it to screen for outliers, then have a human listen to those outliers and judge.

Actually, you can rely on the customers. They're the only ones that can tell you.

Yeah, this whole discussion cracks me up. I have a number of direct experiences with Kaiser nurses. They repeatedly got into arguments with doctors in front of me, tried to countermand doctors' instructions, ignored their patients, and complained to each other about their patients while they were right there.

Repeated unprofessional behavior with no discernible change after trying to address it. My take is that the Kaiser nursing org has a serious discipline and customer (patient) focus problem.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#95

Post by wisty »

BeetleB wrote: post #12
neaden wrote: post #3

If you think using a machine to evaluate how well a human is showing empathy is a good idea, you probably shouldn't have any position of power.

If you employ a few hundred nurses, how exactly would you evaluate how well they show empathy? You can't rely on asking the customer. When they're upset (they often are in these calls), they'll lean towards the negative regardless. I don't know how well these AIs evaluate, but if they're even a little bit good, it makes sense to use it to screen for outliers, then have a human listen to those outliers and judge.

There's a great academic book called "Stupid Rules". Excessive rules (or KPIs - often rules in disguise) exist because we don't like authority.

Get the doctor to assess the nurse. Or the head nurses if you don't trust doctors. The nurses have managers, and if none of the doctors or head nurses can be trusted with a simple matter like assessing whether nurses are doing their jobs then you got bigger issues.

Oh no, the boss might play favourites if it's not an objective measure! Oh the injustice /s

But stupid rules or KPI also allow favourites. You can use an officious 30 point checklist and play favourites while ticking boxes. You can even rig "objective" data by controlling other factors (e.g. giving someone difficult customers do deal with).

Yeah, data driven would be nice, if you have good data. But data driven is a power tool. You don't measure SLOC or reward token use in software because of perverse incentives.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#97

Post by BeetleB »

bmitc wrote: post #22
nojito wrote: post #13

Kaiser has some of the best healthcare outcomes in the country/world due to their protocols and how good they are in ensuring adherence to them. It’s going to be very improbable that these statements are true.

> Kaiser has some of the best healthcare outcomes in the country/world due to their protocols and how good they are in ensuring adherence to them. Where and how is that determined? I.e., any references to back that up? And you can't in one breath say they have the best healthcare but then say their employees' reports of their experience are unreliable.

Customer satisfaction in California is not great.

In the Northwest (Oregon + Washington), it's pretty high. Not sure about other locations (Hawaii, etc).

But again: Customer satisfaction doesn't mean best outcomes...

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#99

Post by gyanchawdhary »

nojito wrote: post #13

Kaiser has some of the best healthcare outcomes in the country/world due to their protocols and how good they are in ensuring adherence to them. It’s going to be very improbable that these statements are true.

I 100% agree.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#100

Post by abeindoria »

That is surprising. My primary care provider had a different response. Basically he said something in line of

"You wouldn't believe how much of a relief it has been. In your last visit, you saw me typing everything you were saying, right? I don't have to. I can listen to you and take very specific notes as necessary as opposed to focusing on both typing and listening to you at the same time. It has bought my stress levels down to here." (Indicated by his hand lowering)

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