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Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

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Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#831

Post by yansongliu »

toephu2 wrote: post #688
m3h wrote: post #86

> Kimi K3 is Kimi’s most capable model to date, with 2.8 trillion parameters. This puts them on the top of the largest open models list: Kimi K3 2.8T DeepSeek-V4-Pro 1.6T (49B active) Kimi K2.6 ~1T (32B active) GLM-5.2 754B (40B active) DeepSeek-V3.2 685B Mistral Large 3 675B That's one mighty large model! Moonshot is going to need the USD 500 million reportedly raised earlier this year to run this model.

How many parameters do the top closed models use?

Fable reportedly use 20T paramteres, 1T=1000B. Opus is probably 10T. That said, these are estimates based on model preformance and scope of general knowledge breadth.OpenAI, Anthropic, and Google have not openly report their model sizes.

Chinese models are way behind on the mode size race due to lack of abudent AI infrustructures. That said, it seems Chinese models are going pretty well on a seprate route. They manage to achieve 80-90% performance with 1/10 of the model size. This is some what related to the diminishing reward situation described in the scaling law. I think it can also be attributed to their persistent research in this direction. Thinking and DSA (deepseek attention) were both developed and opensourced by Chinese labs then adopted worldwide.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#832

Post by geniium »

simonw wrote: post #111

Pelican: https://tools.simonwillison.net/markdown-svg-renderer#url=ht... - rendered via the OpenRouter API: https://openrouter.ai/moonshotai/kimi-k3 95 input, 16,658 output = 25 cents! https://www.llm-prices.com/#it=95&ot=16658&ic=3&oc=15 (13,241 of those were reasoning tokens.) I think that's the most expensive pelican I've rendered through a Chinese model so far.

Impressive Pelican, I like it

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#833

Post by fauigerzigerk »

mike_hearn wrote: post #812
Schlagbohrer wrote: post #732

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google did this by creating Android to undercut Apple. Many US tech firms did this strategy in the 2000s and 2010s of supporting open source alternatives to their opponent's closed source money maker, to undercut the competition. Back then, it let open source have a big boost and we all benefited from that. Hopefully open weights models will do the same so that AI can be more democratized. I wouldn't want to live in…

Android wasn't created to undercut Apple. It was started long before the iPhone project was public. Android was created because Google felt their apps could be huge on mobile (correct) but that mobile operating systems of the time were painful and frustrating to develop for.

>Android wasn't created to undercut Apple

Android the technology wasn't, but Android the commercial product along with its business model was.

The first iPhone came out in June 2007. In November of that year Google and partners announced the Open Handset Alliance and the open sourcing of Android.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#834

Post by geniium »

x313 wrote: post #518
softwaredoug wrote: post #478

So Chinese labs are driving essentially towards commodotized intelligence. Even if its a few months behind the US. Is this a classic 'commoditize my compliment' situation? They want to sell the hardware and infrastructure behind AI and make the software part not the value driver / moat? I can see it. But also even two Chinese labs sinking 100s of millions USD into training isn't exactly commoditization. It's still a…

If there was some grand strategy for all Chinese labs, surely it'd have leaked by now. I think its more likely that: - Companies can still make money from commodities - Chinese labs only have 5-10% the valuation of OpenAI/Anthropic, so massive monopoly profits aren't necessary. Profit expectations for tech companies in China are really low in general, complete opposite of the US. - Open weighting is a great way to ge…

> Chinese labs only have 5-10% the valuation of OpenAI/Anthropic, so massive monopoly profits aren't necessary. Profit expectations for tech companies in China are really low in general, complete opposite of the US.

It’s really amazing to see that the competition is creating better quality models for everyone - and am really happy that some of these are open source (or partially os).

Regarding the valuation, that maybe points a finger to the over valuation of the US companies ?

Interesting times to be alive.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#835

Post by baq »

softwaredoug wrote: post #478

So Chinese labs are driving essentially towards commodotized intelligence. Even if its a few months behind the US. Is this a classic 'commoditize my compliment' situation? They want to sell the hardware and infrastructure behind AI and make the software part not the value driver / moat? I can see it. But also even two Chinese labs sinking 100s of millions USD into training isn't exactly commoditization. It's still a…

They want to bankrupt the US AI industry and lock down the future development (and the substantial financial gains from more capable models). Essentially the China car manufacturer playbook, but for LLMs which are ~software, so much faster to execute.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#836

Post by microtonal »

mike_hearn wrote: post #812
Schlagbohrer wrote: post #732

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google did this by creating Android to undercut Apple. Many US tech firms did this strategy in the 2000s and 2010s of supporting open source alternatives to their opponent's closed source money maker, to undercut the competition. Back then, it let open source have a big boost and we all benefited from that. Hopefully open weights models will do the same so that AI can be more democratized. I wouldn't want to live in…

Android wasn't created to undercut Apple. It was started long before the iPhone project was public. Android was created because Google felt their apps could be huge on mobile (correct) but that mobile operating systems of the time were painful and frustrating to develop for.

Android was even an acquisition. However, it was open sourced after the iPhone. The iPhone was announced in January 2007 and released in June 2007. The first AOSP announcement/source drop was in November 2007.

I think it is very likely that Google open sourced Android to undercut iPhone. Android was initially developed for phones with a keyboard (similar to Blackberry). The introduction of the iPhone made it clear that touch was going to be the future, so Android was quite far behind before it was even released. Besides that, my recollection is that the first Android releases were pretty bad compared to iPhone OS. I know a lot of people (not necessarily Apple fans) who looked down on Android.

Open sourcing Android was a great move to rally manufacturers around Android and gather a large group of early enthusiasts.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#837

Post by 02mm »

gabriel666smith wrote: post #797
pitched wrote: post #725

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An approach I like to help solving this is antagonistic or review agents. The first agent decides that eye glows turn NPCs into enemies, the second agent is fully dedicated to deciding if that is valid. If the review fails, it leaves notes and the original agent tries again.

This is also the best approach I've found thus far when I'm seeing how well LLMs can form narrative content. I don't frame its prompt as antagonistic though - I've found in the past (with weaker models, so YMMV) that this can be overly officious, sometimes blocking more creative outputs that you'd want to retain. The structure I've found that works best is to have six or seven agents chained, each roughly mimicking a…

Does the continuity agent create lore entries for planned-but-unrevealed stuff as well, so things that might happen in future?

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#838

Post by pluralmonad »

rw2 wrote: post #721
bigyabai wrote: post #714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instead of limiting models and debating ethics This is what liability management looks like for proprietary models. If it's not out in the open, then you can be held directly accountable for generating the tokens that kill people. They're having these conversations to avoid being held liable, not because they're offended by people dying because of AI.

[flagged]

How does one "win the AI race?"

If there is a concrete finish line, there are likely no winners.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#839

Post by hennell »

eleventen wrote: post #120
simonw wrote: post #111

Pelican: https://tools.simonwillison.net/markdown-svg-renderer#url=ht... - rendered via the OpenRouter API: https://openrouter.ai/moonshotai/kimi-k3 95 input, 16,658 output = 25 cents! https://www.llm-prices.com/#it=95&ot=16658&ic=3&oc=15 (13,241 of those were reasoning tokens.) I think that's the most expensive pelican I've rendered through a Chinese model so far.

Oof, front fork is wrecked. Pelican should be wearing a helmet on that death trap.

I'm more concerned about the Pelican's knees

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#840

Post by olmo23 »

anigbrowl wrote: post #702

This might be the most impressive website generator demo I've seen: https://macos27.kimi.page Context from the person who prompted it: https://x.com/mweinbach/status/2077827886149439547

Even the terminal works, this is madness.

I was able to create a temp folder, echo hello > world, and then I could open the folder in finder and double-clicking the file opens it in a GUI text editor.

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