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Dua Lipa opens library for banned and censored books in Portugal

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Re: Dua Lipa opens library for banned and censored books in Portugal

#261

Post by carlosjobim »

mossTechnician wrote: post #196
carlosjobim wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The effective difference is of course that they could easily get that book from somewhere else if they want it. If I'm prevented from bringing my dog into a restaurant, that doesn't mean that dogs are banned. It means I have to go to the restaurant on the other side of the street. If McDonald's doesn't serve any hard liquor it doesn't mean that alcohol has been banned in the country.

Is it really that cut and dry? A technically competent person might easily access a book while living in an authoritarian country, while someone who grows up in an authoritarian family in a "free" country might be prevented from reading a book both at home and at the school where their parents lobbied to ban the book. (It's quite hard to access suppressed information if you lack the knowledge it exists in the first p…

Authoritarian family? Parents have the authority over their children until they are old enough to make their own decisions. It is up to them how they raise their kids.

They will have all the time and opportunity in the world to read and try anything they want to when they're older.

Re: Dua Lipa opens library for banned and censored books in Portugal

#262

Post by davkan »

DeusExMachina wrote: post #260
cauch wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying "entirely subjective" is a bit BS, don't you think? On one hand, you have someone who says that exposing children to sexual or violent content can have an impact on them. This is something that has been studied, sociologists, psychiatrists, doctors, ... have concluded that this is true. On the other hand, you have someone who says that an ideology they don't like will lead to the ruin of the society. At the sa…

> "murdering" is universally considered as "bad" Societies that practice(d) slavery and human sacrifice clearly do not share such a "universal" value.

Neither of your examples would be considered murder by those doing them. In the case of slavery you can’t murder property.

A murder is specifically an unjustified killing. And as far as I am aware it is universally considered bad. Which makes sense because murder being considered bad is pretty much baked into the definition.

I can’t think of a modern society that does not condemn going into a random person’s house and killing them. Nor any past ones for that matter.

Now in some backwards ass country they might not consider it murder if that random person was homosexual. Or a killing might be justified in the context of a revolution. Or to bring rain. Or when shooting some guy fleeing with your tv in the back.

Re: Dua Lipa opens library for banned and censored books in Portugal

#263

Post by cauch »

DeusExMachina wrote: post #260
cauch wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying "entirely subjective" is a bit BS, don't you think? On one hand, you have someone who says that exposing children to sexual or violent content can have an impact on them. This is something that has been studied, sociologists, psychiatrists, doctors, ... have concluded that this is true. On the other hand, you have someone who says that an ideology they don't like will lead to the ruin of the society. At the sa…

> "murdering" is universally considered as "bad" Societies that practice(d) slavery and human sacrifice clearly do not share such a "universal" value.

You realise that it is exactly what I'm talking about: everything is "subjective" if you look close enough, but only an idiot will think everything is therefore on the same plane.

Sure, "murdering" is not "100% always in all circumstances considered 100% bad" (but I still think that "universal" was not a bad choice, the same way "universal healthcare" does not mean there is no illegibility criteria and therefore exceptions). And of course, there is a lot of discussion to even have on what people mean by murder, but that is, again, missing the point.

But that is totally ridiculous to then pretend that it means that "murdering is bad" has therefore as much legitimacy as "touching your nose with the left hand index finger is bad".

The fact that is subjective does not mean that you cannot say anything anymore. It feels like a common bias in "technology" people: some of them think they are so smart and are condescending to "social science", and yet they are lost on concepts that social science considers as obvious.

Re: Dua Lipa opens library for banned and censored books in Portugal

#264

Post by the_af »

like_any_other wrote: post #147
the_af wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. A Christian theocracy of Puritan values. From Atwood herself ( https://lithub.com/margaret-atwood-on-how-she-came-to-write-... ) "The deep foundation of the United States—so went my thinking—was not the comparatively recent 18th-century Enlightenment structures of the Republic, with their talk of equality and their separation of Church and State, but the heavy-handed theocracy of 17th-century Puritan New Englan…

God forbid we notice any similarities not approved by the author. How silly of me to think it could be about anything other than the religion and cultures where gender equality is the highest.

Oh, the similarities to fundamentalist Islam are absolutely warranted, I just wanted to address the incorrect claim that Atwood wrote Handmain about Iran or Islam (which is false).

Of course all fundamentalist oppressive branches of religions, be it Christianity, Islam, Judaism or whatever, converge to similar shapes.

Atwood was worried about trends in the US and imagined a world where the earliest conservative Puritan Christianity -- that she considers a foundational part of America -- made a comeback. So no "gender equality". The early Puritans didn't behave "like Islam", any similarities are a result of a convergent evolution of sorts; their sins are entirely their own: fundamentalist Christianity. Atwood said much, that these were faults of the West she was describing.

I'm all for Death of the Author, but the specific claim I refuted was about what Handmaid was intended to be about (not other valid interpretations) and only the author can answer that. And she did!

Re: Dua Lipa opens library for banned and censored books in Portugal

#265

Post by buellerbueller »

account42 wrote: post #255
buellerbueller wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See also: normal people who aren't afraid of books and think that banning them is silly.

Banning books on a country level may be silly but curating what is allowed in a school library is not. Which is exactly why people with an agenda want to conflate these two.

The librarians should curate, not the parents. The parents are welcome to decide for their own children what is permissible and not, but should have no authority to prevent others' children from accessing materials they do not find objectionable.

Why is it about "parental rights" when it comes to anti-vaccination, but authoritarian control mechanisms when it comes to someone else's kid reading a fucking book?

Re: Dua Lipa opens library for banned and censored books in Portugal

#266

Post by miyoji »

throwitaway222 wrote: post #229
miyoji wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You should think this through. The logical endpoint is that all age based content restrictions are "authoritarian". I do think that. It's rude to assume that I haven't thought my position through. > So it should be ok to stock movies like Martyrs[1] or Men Behind the Sun[2] in elementary school libraries, because who are parents and teachers to decide whether seeing a woman flayed to death or a child vivisected is…

But now in a vacuum you're advocating from your position (not being a parent) but being a human, that because you turned out ok, that everyone else will. There is no numbers, no statistics, just your anecdote here. Which is ok, but that's why two people immediately called your opinion out as being extreme.

> There is no numbers, no statistics, just your anecdote here. Which is ok, but that's why two people immediately called your opinion out as being extreme.

No one else provided any, either. If you have strong evidence that exposure to media you don't like is bad for your children, please provide it. If you don't have any, my anecdote is better evidence than you've provided.

Two people calling out an opinion as extreme does not make it extreme, and an opinion being extreme does not make it wrong.

Re: Dua Lipa opens library for banned and censored books in Portugal

#267

Post by buellerbueller »

mcphage wrote: post #242
buellerbueller wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>When people ban books because they don't want others to learn about trans people, they're usually pretty vocal about their motivations. You assume they are vocal about their motivations, because how could you possibly know, if they claim it under cover of "not enough shelf space"?

Well, maybe a lot of people do keep it secret… that’s true. But plenty of people do not keep it secret.

I largely agree with you for the time being; I think right now we are in the "dumb authoritarian" phase because Trump, Musk, Thiel can't keep their mouths shut about their true motivations. I fear that there are probably a smarter generation of authoritarians who are more clever (Russel Vought, for example), and not in the spotlight, waiting for their time to ascend.

The loud ones come first, because they have to corrupt the minds of the youth and the mentally weak so they can have a movement.

Re: Dua Lipa opens library for banned and censored books in Portugal

#269

Post by jpfromlondon »

throwaway27448 wrote: post #184
jpfromlondon wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think it allows greater flexibility for humor and subtext than ever. It has more ambiguity because we had many similar words for similar things that are differential in some minor way. Now everything can mean anything, it is leaning more expressive with less precision, English's best quality is that it balances the precise and the expressive, the craft is gone and if you misunderstand what I've written because I'v…

> Now everything can mean anything I don't think you're this unable to discern meaning. I have faith in you. > if you misunderstand what I've written because I've used the wrong words that's your fault. You could say the same thing about how you're reacting right now.

Be creative, use ten simple words when one archaic or obscure one would suffice, sure, go ahead, use nonplussed synonymously with indifferent, what's most important is that you be creative in your artless murder of English.

Re: Dua Lipa opens library for banned and censored books in Portugal

#270

Post by amanaplanacanal »

mangodrunk wrote: post #248
amanaplanacanal wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the school librarian's job to select books. These people are trained in childhood education. Your imagination has clearly gone way off the deep end here. Reading that there are gay people doesn't turn people gay. If you think it does, that says more about you, I think. Trying to hide the existence of gay people from children leads to homophobia from the straight kids, and mental health issues from the gay kids.…

So you think parents should not have a say? Wouldn’t that be rather authoritarian to have whatever books and disregard criticism? Many librarians are activists and are choosing books that are not educational. They are actively selecting books that they agree with.

You hire professionals to teach your children. If you think you can do it better than them, why are you sending your kids to school?
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