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U.S. allows Anthropic to release Mythos AI to ‘trusted’ US organizations

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Re: U.S. allows Anthropic to release Mythos AI to ‘trusted’ US organizations

#811

Post by Matl »

wrsh07 wrote: post #796
Matl wrote: post #768

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not really sure why you say it isn't an attack or adversarial. One side is doing something the other side doesn't want. Seems to be pretty clearly adversarial. This is Anthropic we're talking about here. A company that's infamous for adversarial scraping of copyrighted content. I generally don't accept their framing, especially when it's pretty clear what the end goal of that is.

This is a bit of a non sequitur. The most charitable read i can get is: > Theft presupposes a legitimate possessory claim by the victim. If A’s possession of X is itself wrongful because A stole X from B, then when C takes X from A, C has not violated A’s rightful ownership of X—because A has none. I think the whole thing is a bit fraught. In the best case, all frontier model companies would have invested in a giant…

I think you misunderstood my point. Distillation is not stealing. It's not that

"Theft presupposes a legitimate possessory claim by the victim. If A’s possession of X is itself wrongful because A stole X from B, then when C takes X from A, C has not violated A’s rightful ownership of X—because A has none."

Anthropic has no standing in claiming that using its model output is 'stealing' because that would basically eviscerate their business model where they claim that enterprises can use its model output and still claim the generated code as their IP.

Re: U.S. allows Anthropic to release Mythos AI to ‘trusted’ US organizations

#812

Post by spwa4 »

chiply314 wrote: post #776
spwa4 wrote: post #722

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not how economists think. They see the US, go "Coal mining, check. Iron mining, check, so you can make steel inside US. More than enough people, check. Oil, check. As well as 1000 other things, and mostly, the checks are there", and conclude the US could produce cheap cars. So if it makes sense or it becomes urgent enough, it will happen. Nothing is really preventing the US from doing everything itself, and d…

Didn't USA get rich by being the manufactoring powerhose in the 60/70s? That wasn't just because USA consumed everything by themselves. I assume it was a mix of exports and a continuesly growing population keeping this system alive for a long time. If you know reduce the avg salary down to 1/3, you will get cheaper cars (if you even still need people to make cars, relevant amount of people), but still no one can affo…

No. The US got rich by becoming the manufacturing powerhouse after WW2, and lending enormous amounts to the world (even to the Soviets) so people could actually buy the goods.

The second part played an enormous role too.

Re: U.S. allows Anthropic to release Mythos AI to ‘trusted’ US organizations

#813

Post by ElProlactin »

basisword wrote: post #592
ElProlactin wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Taiwan, perhaps, but they're playing a long-term tactical game rather than a "invade the country we don't like this week" game. So one of the world's biggest and most rapid military build-ups in history that is largely intended to give China the ability to seize a democratic country by force by 2027 over any US/Western efforts to protect it is OK because...it's "a long-term tactical game"? Note that China is not ju…

You're judging China based on some future thing that may happen. The US has been bombing Iran for the last year impacting the entire global economy. I think I'll judge based on actions.

Are you able to walk and chew gum at the same time? Are you capable of finding the actions of two nations deplorable at the same time?

Like, can you not find the US bombing of Iran and, say, China's genocide against the Uyghurs to be a terrible thing at the same time?

Is there something preventing you from being concerned about Trump's threats to take Canada or Greenland and being concerned about China's planning and threats to seize Taiwan by force at the same time?

Re: U.S. allows Anthropic to release Mythos AI to ‘trusted’ US organizations

#814

Post by surgical_fire »

ElProlactin wrote: post #793
surgical_fire wrote: post #754

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So China causing more than a million deaths and displacements when it actually invaded a functionally sovereign state (Tibet) and threatening to invade and seize Taiwan, which has its own democratically-elected government, constitution, currency, central bank, military, etc. "is not your problem" Correct. > but somehow Trump threatening to invade Greenland is your problem? Correct. > Unless you're a Greenlander, by…

> No, I just live in a country that does not pretend to be the world police. No, you're just an abhorrent person. The fact that you don't care about the people of Tibet, Taiwan, or any other country or group of people that you don't deem important because they don't share your interests, but feign fear that your life could be shattered by Trump invading Greenland, speaks volumes about what type of person you are. The…

> The fact that you don't care about the people of Tibet, Taiwan, or any other country or group of people

They have my sympathy. But I can't do anything about it. Nor can you.

What exactly do you propose in a conversation that started by people discussed using Chinese LLMs instead of LLMs from the US?

> but feign fear that your life could be shattered by Trump invading Greenland, speaks volumes about what type of person you are.

The country where I live would, per article 42 of the treaty of the European Union, have to defend Denmark if the US took military action to take over Greenland.

I am not feigning anything, this would absolutely have a major negative impact in my life.

In many ways, Iran was the best ally the EU could have hoped for. By bravely resisting US aggression, it made the war costly enough that invading Greenland would probably be politically untenable now.

> The largest contributor to the EU economy (Germany) was responsible for the worst genocide in human history.

In recent memory, yes. I can think of others that may have been worse in relative numbers, but further in the past and not as well documented to know for sure.

> The second and fourth largest (France and Spain) were two of the most brutal colonial powers in history, and their wealth today wouldn't exist without the resources they violently extracted from their colonies. Portugal was the largest participant in the Transatlantic Slave Trade.

I know quite well about all that. In fact, I come from one country that used to colonized by such powers.

You can mention many more past nations, empires and so on, all with their laundry list of atrocities. Imperial Japan, Mongolian empire, Ottomans, Aztecs, British Empire, etc and so forth.

I am still not sure what is your point. I don't think you have any to be fair, beyond some vague anxiety that people would use Chinese LLMs.

> Humans anywhere and everywhere (the US, Europe, China, etc.) can be horrible, and your loathsome comments prove that in microcosm.

I am horrible because I care about things that affect me directly while caring a lot less about thing that don't?

Or am I horrible because when I evaluate two evils I would pick one that affects me less?

Because in terms of power to enact change in the world, I have none. I am just some middle-aged software engineer living in some small town, somewhere. I don't exactly have the power to do anything for people beyond my immediate vicinity.

"Give me the strength to change what I can, the resilience to accept what I can't, and the wisdom to know one from the other"

Re: U.S. allows Anthropic to release Mythos AI to ‘trusted’ US organizations

#815

Post by wolvoleo »

WarmWash wrote: post #713
wolvoleo wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes this. China's leadership is pretty evil and clearly a danger to the world but not insane.

The US has an open media and the western world internet is a non-stop airing of the US's dirty laundry. China has only state media and little internet overlap with the west. From the POV of your typical western internet denizen, The US elected a dictator to burn the country to the ground, while China is building a utopia where the fruits are free for everyone.

They have state media but we don't consume those.

I certainly don't see our european media to be pro-China. The Uyghur issues are major criticism. Also the way they treated their citizens during the pandemic and the protests.

Re: U.S. allows Anthropic to release Mythos AI to ‘trusted’ US organizations

#816

Post by wolvoleo »

plastic-enjoyer wrote: post #427
wolvoleo wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes this. China's leadership is pretty evil and clearly a danger to the world but not insane.

> China's leadership is pretty evil and clearly a danger to the world Is this how Americans are coping with their civilizatory down fall and vanishing hegemony?

I'm not American. And no, I think America is falling down even more, it is clearly morally and ethically bankrupt. The only thing it has going for it is money but I think this will decline too as goodwill is important too and Trump is burning all that to the ground.

Re: U.S. allows Anthropic to release Mythos AI to ‘trusted’ US organizations

#817

Post by ElProlactin »

surgical_fire wrote: post #814
ElProlactin wrote: post #793

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, I just live in a country that does not pretend to be the world police. No, you're just an abhorrent person. The fact that you don't care about the people of Tibet, Taiwan, or any other country or group of people that you don't deem important because they don't share your interests, but feign fear that your life could be shattered by Trump invading Greenland, speaks volumes about what type of person you are. The…

> The fact that you don't care about the people of Tibet, Taiwan, or any other country or group of people They have my sympathy. But I can't do anything about it. Nor can you. What exactly do you propose in a conversation that started by people discussed using Chinese LLMs instead of LLMs from the US? > but feign fear that your life could be shattered by Trump invading Greenland, speaks volumes about what type of per…

> They have my sympathy.

> I am horrible because I care about things that affect me directly while caring a lot less about thing that don't?

Your previous words speak for themselves:

> The thing is, I don't care. China can be as awful as it wants to be to it's own citizens.

> Again, I don't care. China sees places like Tibet and Taiwan as China. Not my problem.

You are abhorrent, no matter how hard you want to believe that you're a helpless piece of styrofoam floating in the rough ocean.

I'll give you a hint that your parents should have taught you when you were a child: you can care about other people and have compassion for them even if you're not able to help them.

The seeds that grow into great atrocities have throughout history always been planted by apathy.

> I am just some middle-aged software engineer living in some small town, somewhere.

My sympathies to your neighbors.

Re: U.S. allows Anthropic to release Mythos AI to ‘trusted’ US organizations

#818

Post by spwa4 »

sajithdilshan wrote: post #760
iririririr wrote: post #676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that would actually spark a new golden age. aws et all are just extracting rent. we all know this. telcos have some ownership of the android firmware they distribute, and could easily spin up and fund alternatives like replicant or even go full partnership with Chinese versions. simply moving email providers from Microsoft would make threeletter agencies work much more difficult, and it's a 2min dns change. any way y…

Either you’re stupid or ignorant. What do you mean by easily spin up alternative android? And who is going to fund that? EU spend millions of Euros for a corona Warn app, and spinning an android alternative would cost billions, with tax payers money. Also everyone that uses iPhones, what are they going to do? Are they gonna get free android phones? Forget about phones, all the companies that uses RDS would lose their…

> And who is going to fund that?

Oh, European billionnaires and incumbent telecoms would love to. As soon as they get enough government concessions and guarantees. Who exactly? The ALDI family. Xavier Niel.

At least for people working in IT this is the fastest way to answer the question "how can we make it even worse?". Especially European incumbent telecoms. They're the answer to this question "do people sometime quit their job, in Europe, through suicide?". Yes, yes they do.

Re: U.S. allows Anthropic to release Mythos AI to ‘trusted’ US organizations

#819

Post by wrsh07 »

Matl wrote: post #811
wrsh07 wrote: post #796

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bit of a non sequitur. The most charitable read i can get is: > Theft presupposes a legitimate possessory claim by the victim. If A’s possession of X is itself wrongful because A stole X from B, then when C takes X from A, C has not violated A’s rightful ownership of X—because A has none. I think the whole thing is a bit fraught. In the best case, all frontier model companies would have invested in a giant…

I think you misunderstood my point. Distillation is not stealing. It's not that "Theft presupposes a legitimate possessory claim by the victim. If A’s possession of X is itself wrongful because A stole X from B, then when C takes X from A, C has not violated A’s rightful ownership of X—because A has none." Anthropic has no standing in claiming that using its model output is 'stealing' because that would basically evi…

Ah I wonder if there's confusion somewhere.

My understanding is that distillation uses specific probing queries to extract model weights in some meaningful sense.

There's also the element of "how one uses model outputs can be in accordance with or against the TOS"

(This is true of any website! How I access and use the info on the website can be in accordance with or against the TOS)

Both of those things: doing something against TOS, using specific queries to illegitimately gain access to model weights - that's why calling it adversarial and stealing feel fair.

I didn't (and don't) understand your point, but in an earlier post you made some claim about it being Anthropic - you can't steal from Anthropic. The above is the only reason I can think one might believe that

Re: U.S. allows Anthropic to release Mythos AI to ‘trusted’ US organizations

#820

Post by [deleted] »

incr_me wrote: post #570
win311fwg wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Communism is about control of means of production. No, but perhaps you are now confusing communism with Marxism? Long story short, Marx and Engels hypothesized that capitalists would effectively withhold the technology necessary to realize post-scarcity. They suggested that the only way to bring post-scarcity into reality was to have the public take control of the means of production — a.k.a. socialism. You are rig…

I've been reading Marx for a long time. Everything you've said in this comment is utterly wild.

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