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Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

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Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#191

Post by 627467 »

epolanski wrote: post #34
cmiles8 wrote: post #22

The question was never do enough computers exist in Europe, but rather can Europe organize the capital and cross-company / cross-border relationships required to build a big model at scale. There the answer still looks iffy at best. This is where the US has, and continues to, thrive and where Europe can’t get out of its own way.

I don't believe Europe can build models that can compete with American ones. 1. In order to build competitive models, you need to offer competitive salaries and equity. Europe has very old and inadequate corporate law virtually everywhere but in UK. European labs cannot attract talent that can build such competitive models with the proper lack of incentives. 2. In order to build competitive models, you need gargantua…

> you need to offer competitive salaries and equity

This has always been an argument for "peace time" underperformance of european tech sector but I don't buy this argument for critical national security needs. Historically countries never needed to top the compensation charts to get talent. What they do need is a clear mission and ambition. This is what is missing in Europe

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#192

Post by HDThoreaun »

sajithdilshan wrote: post #179
HDThoreaun wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There will always be a place for domestically sourced AI I think. Even if Mistral models suck theyll get enough defense revenue that they wont go out of business

Sums up EU in a nutshell, if it cannot compete in the open market, fund it by tax payers money (defence budgets are funded by tax payers money)

I mean US is doing the same thing with intel so not like this is EU exclusive

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#193

Post by zarzavat »

mopsi wrote: post #160
red75prime wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why shouldn't I? Your garden is not of a particular interest to me. It's just one of millions of gardens that I might look at as a part of scenery, or to get my bearings if I happen to be in the area. You'd be better off fighting street views in general, unless you are OK with the Streisand effect.

I prefer not to have views of my home permanently archived and made available to anyone in the world, unless they can present a reasonable need for it. City planners? Go ahead. Local people for navigation purposes? Go ahead. But some random bloke from another continent? That's clearly too far. Services like Street View should have distance-based friction to preserve privacy. The further you are, the less (or at lower…

This is just NIMBYism, literally.

Street View is one of the most amazing technologies ever invented. It brings humanity closer together. No longer do you need to get a visa and get on a plane to see what the world is like in a particular place. You can just look on street view. Throughout history people have given up their lives for that kind of world knowledge.

Your inclination to ruin one of humanity's greatest achievements with distance-based blurring to protect the privacy of what is already visible at street level is just sad.

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#194

Post by JumpCrisscross »

cccbbbaaa wrote: post #154
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> EU legislature is, at least in spirit, trying to protect human rights. What does it say about progress that the same laws that protect human rights also stifle innovation? As you said, in spirit. In fact the EU’s AI Act is not really human rights legislation. (It exempts military and national-security uses.) Where it comes close, e.g. in seeking to ban facial recognition or social scoring, it does so clumsily. So i…

> (It exempts military and national-security uses.) The EU cannot legislate on national security matters.

> EU cannot legislate on national security matters

Sure. Legally, makes sense. Practically, if you want to do all those things the legislation purports to be doing for human rights, you just have to get the right general or spy or police chief on your side. That makes the whole scheme a bit of a boondoggle. Lots of friction. Remarkably little tangible benefit.

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#195

Post by lava_pidgeon »

signatoremo wrote: post #168
fxtentacle wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing that nobody talks about is how many EU citizens already are working on frontier models, just inside US companies. That’s why the prohibition was so crippling for Anthropic. And, btw, the bang per buck that I got from OVH was better than EC2.

> The thing that nobody talks about is how many EU citizens already are working on frontier models, just inside US companies Why don't you ask yourself: how come those brilliant European minds couldn't find a job that pays well enough at home? Why could they in the US? There are many more Chinese and Indian, and other internationals working for US companies, outnumbering Europeans. It's not like Europe was intentiona…

This questions are discussed a lot. I just refer to the draghi report and also in the start up field the underdeveloped financial market in the EU. Finance markets have a negative vibe (rich people, greed, causing huge problems like 2008, antisemitism) so most politicians didn't care.

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#196

Post by bluegatty »

sumeno wrote: post #150
sajithdilshan wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, it’s quite funny that everyone equate US and US legal system to Trump. The founding fathers created a constitution that can whit-stand and survive people like Trump and still the Republic would thrive. Trump would be gone in few years but US would still be there like it has been for the past 250 years for the people by the people. On the other hand EU started as an economic union and has rotten into a behemo…

The founding fathers created a document that was already struggling with modern realities prior to Trump. 250 years is not a particularly impressive amount of time for a country to not fall apart.

"250 years is not a particularly impressive amount of time for a country to not fall apart." ?

Sure it is, it's very impressive.

What other nations have lasted that long?

Chinese Dynasties usually collapse within that range.

Aside from the UK, maybe Sweden (?) which have been fairly contiguous, most nations are more short-lived. France is on it's 5th Republic in the same time-frame.

America is way more than the gong show in charge right now.

Most of the 'tests' of it's integrity are due to really just that one guy.

But you're right to point out inherent problems with the Union.

Because EU is not a 'right wing flag waving' entity, we don't really think about it in terms of 'nationalism', but the EU has among the loudest, most clearly visceral and virulent nationalist supporters.

You can say anything you want about national governments but critique of the EU is met with a lot of rancour.

I've worked for EU bodies, it's full of well meaning people and it has tremendous value as an economic unions, but as a political entity it has existential flaws, too many to name, and it is absolutely an elitist project and it absolutely has a 'regulate first' attitude, which is quite upside down.

'Doing The Stuff' matters 10x more than 'Talking About The Stuff'.

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#197

Post by nradov »

mnewme wrote: post #98
nradov wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet the EU legislature seems to be actively hostile to some human rights, such as the right to free expression and the right to keep and bear arms. How do you account for that discrepancy?

European countries have higher freedom of press than the US. Bearing arms is not a human right in Europe, different culture. Europe has more human rights protections than the US and stronger enforcement of them, even against the state, by many metrics. Freedom of expression ends where other human rights begin, is protecting hate speech and Holocaust denial really something worthwhile?

So are you claiming that human rights are subjective and not universal? Or that it's acceptable for the EU to violate human rights if the USA is worse in some ways?

Belarus is a European country. How is freedom of the press doing there?

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#198

Post by lava_pidgeon »

sajithdilshan wrote: post #177
noddybear wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s an interesting contrast that you claim that the USA does not equate to its current political situation, whereas conversely the EU is ‘rotting’ from the inside. Do you think this is a balanced and reasonable claim?

it is a reasonable claim. Trump would be gone in few years and the constitution guarantees it. What does EU has? more bureaucrats? EU doesn't even has a constitution and yet it interfere with the politics of sovereign nations till they bend the knee to Brussels

There is a constant change in politicians and parties and views among people (hello 2022!) about policy topics inside the EU all the time. Do you seriously think politics in the EU stays the same?

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#199

Post by FridgeSeal »

aspenmartin wrote: post #53
ToucanLoucan wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your product can't function in a way that respects humans' right to privacy, your product is the problem, not the humans' rights.

You can grumble about the way things are but Europe being so far behind a technological race with important geopolitical ramifications means that you guys are cutting off your nose to spite your face. Have fun with zero of European regulations impacting frontier development and then eventually having to depend on it.

LLM’s are nice. But if push came to shove, we could very easily continue on without them, or without them involved in every aspect.

Being able to write cutesy SaaS apps faster is neat, but not like, essential, the way water is.

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#200

Post by fragmede »

FridgeSeal wrote: post #199
aspenmartin wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can grumble about the way things are but Europe being so far behind a technological race with important geopolitical ramifications means that you guys are cutting off your nose to spite your face. Have fun with zero of European regulations impacting frontier development and then eventually having to depend on it.

LLM’s are nice. But if push came to shove, we could very easily continue on without them, or without them involved in every aspect. Being able to write cutesy SaaS apps faster is neat, but not like, essential, the way water is.

If that's all you're using LLMs for, you've definitely fallen behind.
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