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Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

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Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#151
Are we really discussing a plan that has never been attempted before (training a frontier model on federated hardware) and that would require coordination on a continental scale, sketched on a five-page PDF on GitHub with no discernible author or affiliation? a PDF that, I am sorry to point out, reeks of AI prose in more than one passage?

What are we even doing here.

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can debate the details and implementation but EU legislature is, at least in spirit, trying to protect human rights. What does it say about progress that the same laws that protect human rights also stifle innovation?

That bureaucrats can kill any kind of progress with the best of intentions.

"I'm from the government, and I'm here to help"

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#153
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bullshit. The AI Act is not the problem, Mistral models are definitely usable and some were/are competitive. European future looks bright compared to the political landscape the US has now

Political landscape of the US right now will change in few years like it has been changing for the last 250 years. USA does not equate to its current political situation. But EU would keep on rotting from inside and I would eat my hat if Mistral doesn’t go out of business in next 5 years

There will always be a place for domestically sourced AI I think. Even if Mistral models suck theyll get enough defense revenue that they wont go out of business

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can debate the details and implementation but EU legislature is, at least in spirit, trying to protect human rights. What does it say about progress that the same laws that protect human rights also stifle innovation?

> EU legislature is, at least in spirit, trying to protect human rights. What does it say about progress that the same laws that protect human rights also stifle innovation? As you said, in spirit. In fact the EU’s AI Act is not really human rights legislation. (It exempts military and national-security uses.) Where it comes close, e.g. in seeking to ban facial recognition or social scoring, it does so clumsily. So i…

> (It exempts military and national-security uses.)

The EU cannot legislate on national security matters.

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it is a bizarre nuclear arms race. what they do need are the raw reaources and the capabilities to sefend themselves ans the capability for offense atleast as a threat.

I'm not sure I follow how this metaphor plays out. Many stand to gain by harming and threatening Europe and many stand to suffer if Europe is harmed or threatened. Far be it from me to claim Europe a perfected system, but there are globalized interdependencies which exist here. I think that I'm not seeing the indicators of hard benefits which correlate to the hypotheses put forward by the financial markets. In which…

These AI models are powerful enough to be used as cyber threats, as a minimum. They may not prove out the other GDP or ROI claims, but the ability to both improve security and dismantle is means if you're not regularly building and improving these models on the software vulnerabilities your organization has, you are increasingly vulnerable to attacks.

Since it's impractical to airgap your military and readinessness capabilities, this means you need incountry capabilities because even if America weren't a fascist, you could easily be disconnected from the support from a cyberattack.

I think you're just following too much AI hype to see any clear use case.

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#156
post #132
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You don't think US states compete with, undercut and stifle each other? Compete with each other, yes. But all US states take pride in Silicon Valley being American. No EU project for its own "Silicon Valley" can succeed, because the French would insist on it being in France, Germans would insist on Germany, Dutch in the Netherlands, etc.

> No EU project for its own "Silicon Valley" can succeed, because the French would insist on it being in France, Germans would insist on Germany, Dutch in the Netherlands, etc. France and Germany and the Netherlands may compete with each other to attract VC and tech firms, but they're ultimately no more capable of preventing each other from getting a runaway success loop than New York and Utah were at preventing Cali…

>France and Germany and the Netherlands may compete with each other to attract VC and tech firms, but they're ultimately no more capable of preventing each other from getting a runaway success loop than New York and Utah were at preventing California from getting actual Silicon Valley.

Yes, but why hasn't said success loop occurred anywhere else yet? Silicon Valley has been a "thing" for five decades now.

> The EU as an institution just doesn't wield any magic wand of creating things like that to be fought over, just like Washington DC also doesn't.

What I meant is that every time HN or elsewhere talks about Europe being behind the US in terms of tech there is mention of the need for a "European Silicon Valley". But that is going to require a level of support that is probably beyond the scale of one national government.

The EU can trace its origins back to France and Germany agreeing to combine its coal and steel.[1] Berlin and Paris would be happy to designate, say, the Strasbourg-Stuttgart axis as the "EU technology hub", with corresponding EU funding, but other member states aren't going to be happy.

[1] And further to the long wrangling over Alsace-Lorraine, but that's neither here nor there

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can do what frontier labs do today which is to properly license things that are copyrighted and use open source web crawls for things that don’t have copyright issues. You can then also commission new datasets (volume needed goes down when quality is high). The European regulations are the thing that will kneecap anything meaningful coming out of Europe. Mind blowing to me that this is worth the tradeoff since Eu…

> You can do what frontier labs do today which is to properly license things that are copyrighted and use open source web crawls for things that don’t have copyright issues. You can then also commission new datasets (volume needed goes down when quality is high). It cost Anthropic $1.5 billion for training on libgen's 480k pirated ebooks. Investors will cough up that money if you're already clearly a frontier lab wit…

[deleted]

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#158
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deepmind lab is a US company.

By ownership perhaps. Founded in the UK, then bought by Google, it still has its HQ in London.

It is a good example that what Europe lacks is capital. And there is an rich get richer phenomenon where wealth flows to the USA, and successful European companies gets sold (and many talented Europeans ends up working for American companies). In many ways the dynamic is one of a colony.

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#159
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can debate the details and implementation but EU legislature is, at least in spirit, trying to protect human rights. What does it say about progress that the same laws that protect human rights also stifle innovation?

> What does it say about progress that the same laws that protect human rights also stifle innovation? Innovative methods to destroy human life are "stifled" by measures intended to preserve human life. What to you mean by "progress" -- the betterment of the human condition, or the enrichment of the few and powerful?

If someone gets rich because they provide an affordable useful service to millions then that is definitely progress. They should get rich.

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#160
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Heck, I hate street views disfigured by huge privacy blobs. Why should you - from the other side of the planet - have an unrestricted view into my front garden at your fingertips?

Why shouldn't I? Your garden is not of a particular interest to me. It's just one of millions of gardens that I might look at as a part of scenery, or to get my bearings if I happen to be in the area. You'd be better off fighting street views in general, unless you are OK with the Streisand effect.

I prefer not to have views of my home permanently archived and made available to anyone in the world, unless they can present a reasonable need for it. City planners? Go ahead. Local people for navigation purposes? Go ahead. But some random bloke from another continent? That's clearly too far.

Services like Street View should have distance-based friction to preserve privacy. The further you are, the less (or at lower quality) should be available, to keep it proportional with the effort required to inspect the place in the real world.

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