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Removing the modem and GPS from my 2024 RAV4 hybrid

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Re: Removing the modem and GPS from my 2024 RAV4 hybrid

#481

Post by sailfast »

GJim wrote: post #440
golem14 wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm tempted to say "oh you sweet summer child", because it seems just unbelievable that the statement is true (in the sense that the small print in rental cars and sales contracts doesn't allow it, ot it's done by law enforcement agencies surrepticiously). But maybe it IS true. I know it's legally mandated.

> it seems just unbelievable that the statement is true So do you think UK/EU vehicle manufactures are deliberately in mass breach of data privacy law... fully knowing the cost of a consumer backlash, fines and vehicle recall costs to fix any law breach? Really? It's genuinely amazing how many Americans on here (a tech news site!) are unaware of data privacy law and expectations outside their homeland.

Yes.

Or, more succinctly - they are likely following the law but have figured out a way to avoid it as written using consumer opt-in and dark patterns.

You call it FUD, but this is hacker news and with overwhelming incentives it is not unreasonable to ask for verification that data isn’t being exfiltrated.

Re: Removing the modem and GPS from my 2024 RAV4 hybrid

#482

Post by sailfast »

GJim wrote: post #451
monegator wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>cars in the UK/EU have no such privacy invading features If you say so. Maybe if you buy the car with cash, but if you finance it you are leasing from a company that has definetly accepted all the terms and conditions to capture and sell all the telemetry to various parties >without an explicit opt-in check out at a modern volvo/audi/whatever, they are making it so difficult to say no every single time the screen is…

[flagged]

Sure, and Volkswagen’s diesel cars are totally clean and pass emissions tests as written.

Your trust in the law (EU law! Haha) to do the enforcing itself is nice, but history and lived experience tell me that these laws are going to be skirted if there’s money in it.

Re: Removing the modem and GPS from my 2024 RAV4 hybrid

#483

Post by GJim »

sailfast wrote: post #482
GJim wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Sure, and Volkswagen’s diesel cars are totally clean and pass emissions tests as written. Your trust in the law (EU law! Haha) to do the enforcing itself is nice, but history and lived experience tell me that these laws are going to be skirted if there’s money in it.

Sorry, I missed the bit where the company was fined, prosecuted, suffered a consumer backlash and subsequently brought their behaviour into check.

Honestly, the number of people on here spreading FUD and defending the 'right' for the adtech industry to invade their private lives and treat them like shit is unreal. One could almost think their salaries are dependent on it!

Re: Removing the modem and GPS from my 2024 RAV4 hybrid

#484

Post by GJim »

GJim wrote: post #423
dualvariable wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of those things that can't ever be solved with individual solutions but needs to be solved through legislation and standards, and ideally a fundamental right to privacy (and a fundamental redefinition of what privacy means when it comes to corporate surveillance of individuals).

Needless to say, cars in the UK/EU have no such privacy invading features without an explicit opt-in thanks to sensible data protection legislation; including the GDPR. The FUD spouted on here by the scummy adtech industry about legislation to protect YOUR privacy is mind boggling. These are the people doing the digital equivalent of sniffing your underwear to work out what you had for breakfast. (And before somebody…

Replying to my own comment to inform the reader that the fluctuation in moderation points I'm seeing is frankly, extreme! It looks like my parent comment has really touched a nerve here on HN: Privacy supporters Vs Adtech supporters, or maybe those who believe in rule of law, and those who think they can do what they like with others private data.

Re: Removing the modem and GPS from my 2024 RAV4 hybrid

#485

Post by is_true »

bitparadox wrote: post #475

I have a few year old Volkswagen. I'm security conscious and made sure to disable all the data collection I could find in the companion app, turn off remote access services, dig through the infotainment to turn off what I could, etc. Last year I requested a Carfax on it, and one of the fields in the request was current mileage. I entered an estimate like 75000 miles. On form submission, that field failed validation w…

I think reporting mileage would be one of the only usages for data collection that is ok with me.

In some countries there's a SCAM in which the owner or agency lowers the mileage of the car and sell it for much more because of the lower mileage.

Re: Removing the modem and GPS from my 2024 RAV4 hybrid

#486

Post by futureshock »

bitparadox wrote: post #475

I have a few year old Volkswagen. I'm security conscious and made sure to disable all the data collection I could find in the companion app, turn off remote access services, dig through the infotainment to turn off what I could, etc. Last year I requested a Carfax on it, and one of the fields in the request was current mileage. I entered an estimate like 75000 miles. On form submission, that field failed validation w…

I think this is interesting because it collides my intuition from the pre-adtech world with the post. Surely collecting telemetry on nearly every mile you drive could never be a sensible use of time or money, right? What kind of insanity is that? But then of course I know that every click on every website is recorded for all time and that data must be many thousands of times less valuable.

Re: Removing the modem and GPS from my 2024 RAV4 hybrid

#487

Post by vachina »

bitparadox wrote: post #475

I have a few year old Volkswagen. I'm security conscious and made sure to disable all the data collection I could find in the companion app, turn off remote access services, dig through the infotainment to turn off what I could, etc. Last year I requested a Carfax on it, and one of the fields in the request was current mileage. I entered an estimate like 75000 miles. On form submission, that field failed validation w…

System working as intended

Re: Removing the modem and GPS from my 2024 RAV4 hybrid

#488

Post by M95D »

GJim wrote: post #438
M95D wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (And before somebody shouts FUD about the UK/EU vehicle eCall 112 system, that certainly doesn't track you or seek to invade your privacy on any level!) How do you know? BTW, the checking all the opt-ins is usually the first thing the sales person does when selling a new car.

[flagged]

I did read the law. Did you? The actual eCall specs are not in there. They are in EN 16102:2011 which is not free, I don't have it, I won't pay for it, and probably you won't either.

But based on my experiece:

- GPS cold start requires 1-2 minutes to get a fix. That's too long in case of a crash. That means GPS is started at the same time as the car.

- A-GPS is better, but not sufficiently fast in case of a crash either.

- The cheapest way to implement an eCall module is to use a phone chip that includes both phone and GPS functions. I'm sure we can agree that all manufacturers will choose the cheapest. That means the telephony is started at the same time as GPS - when the car is started.

- Let's assume that telephony chip is separated. A phone boots in ... 30s? Too slow even if the eCall module doesn't include a full OS.

- A phone in airplane mode still takes 5-10 seconds to connect to the network and 3-5 seconds to dial. If you press the ecall button on your car, how fast does the call connect? If it's less than 5s, the ecall module was already registered on the network. If it's registered on the network, the car leaves a metadata trail on at least one of the local phone operators' servers. That metadata includes the time and the cell towers = full tracking data.

- GSM networks since the beginning mandate that the SIM card can execute commands received from the network. A SIM card is a full independent embedded processor. You should really watch the Defcon and BackHat presentations about SIM cards. Anyone that can send binary SMSs (and most operators are very ignorant/permissive) can track it, start calls, listen on the mic, etc.

- All telephony chips today support packet data. If the car manufacturer wants to, it can preinstall tracking software.

Re: Removing the modem and GPS from my 2024 RAV4 hybrid

#489

Post by noir_lord »

futureshock wrote: post #486
bitparadox wrote: post #475

I have a few year old Volkswagen. I'm security conscious and made sure to disable all the data collection I could find in the companion app, turn off remote access services, dig through the infotainment to turn off what I could, etc. Last year I requested a Carfax on it, and one of the fields in the request was current mileage. I entered an estimate like 75000 miles. On form submission, that field failed validation w…

I think this is interesting because it collides my intuition from the pre-adtech world with the post. Surely collecting telemetry on nearly every mile you drive could never be a sensible use of time or money, right? What kind of insanity is that? But then of course I know that every click on every website is recorded for all time and that data must be many thousands of times less valuable.

Worked in enterprise for most of my career, uniformly the business side asks for every single piece of data possible to be collected and kept in case they need it.

They basically never need 95% of it and most of it is never looked at again.

That 5% that does gets used ends up been collapsed to a single 100,000ft view somewhere that the decision makers in the company can see it and immediately treat as gospel.

Which is fun when you are the new hire, get asked to look at that dashboard and it turns out it's not calculating the totals correctly at all.

Then you have all the people in that business who collate reports for more senior report readers who never look at them but still collate them and those more senior report readers never pass it up anyway.

Enterprise is a serious weird kafakaesque place at times, it helps to just ignore the weirdness since you can't change it.

Re: Removing the modem and GPS from my 2024 RAV4 hybrid

#490

Post by monegator »

GJim wrote: post #477
monegator wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in europe and I work with cars, pal. nagware is absolutely not for safety features. Deny the terms and conditions and every time you start the car you have at least three screens you have to scroll and click buttons. It is a very recent feature, have seen it on models from january onwards. BTW: You also want to deny that because if you agree you also agree to update the system at their will (many cases on the pre…

A class action lawsuit in the making! Pal.

I seriously wish it happened.
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