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Removing the modem and GPS from my 2024 RAV4 hybrid

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Re: Removing the modem and GPS from my 2024 RAV4 hybrid

#451

Post by GJim »

monegator wrote: post #447
GJim wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Needless to say, cars in the UK/EU have no such privacy invading features without an explicit opt-in thanks to sensible data protection legislation; including the GDPR. The FUD spouted on here by the scummy adtech industry about legislation to protect YOUR privacy is mind boggling. These are the people doing the digital equivalent of sniffing your underwear to work out what you had for breakfast. (And before somebody…

>cars in the UK/EU have no such privacy invading features If you say so. Maybe if you buy the car with cash, but if you finance it you are leasing from a company that has definetly accepted all the terms and conditions to capture and sell all the telemetry to various parties >without an explicit opt-in check out at a modern volvo/audi/whatever, they are making it so difficult to say no every single time the screen is…

[flagged]

Re: Removing the modem and GPS from my 2024 RAV4 hybrid

#452

Post by pfp »

cbdevidal wrote: post #136

I was looking into this with Teslas. Apparently the car will not be bricked if you cut the antenna wires. They are in the side mirrors (both sides) and the wires are exposed when you pull the interior door panels. If you then charge only at home you’re even more private than gas cars, which must stop at gas stations with cameras. But both types of vehicles are easily spotted with Flock cameras. And if you keep your p…

I tried looking into this too but couldn't get further than some reddit bickering and a handful of forum posts. Not a Tesla owner myself but might want to be if the privacy issues can be fixed.

Ideally I'd like to keep my cake and eat it: keep navigation (preferably offline), spotify, etc. working but disable the telemetry, remote control, etc. From what I could gather, Teslas can use Wifi (your phone's hotspot) as a backup uplink. So depending on how they've implemented the cloud features, after disconnecting the antennae, you might be able to set up a tiny router and whitelist certain DNS queries, HTTPs connections, etc. But it might also be that they just use a big ol' VPN tunnel to the mothership and pipe all the cloud features through it.

Slightly less ambitious: does the navigation in Teslas work offline? Offline maps and route calculation have been around since the 00's in standalone GPS navigators, so it's not impossible.

Re: Removing the modem and GPS from my 2024 RAV4 hybrid

#453

Post by jaapz »

GJim wrote: post #440
golem14 wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm tempted to say "oh you sweet summer child", because it seems just unbelievable that the statement is true (in the sense that the small print in rental cars and sales contracts doesn't allow it, ot it's done by law enforcement agencies surrepticiously). But maybe it IS true. I know it's legally mandated.

> it seems just unbelievable that the statement is true So do you think UK/EU vehicle manufactures are deliberately in mass breach of data privacy law... fully knowing the cost of a consumer backlash, fines and vehicle recall costs to fix any law breach? Really? It's genuinely amazing how many Americans on here (a tech news site!) are unaware of data privacy law and expectations outside their homeland.

> So do you think UK/EU vehicle manufactures are deliberately in mass breach of data privacy law... fully knowing the cost of a consumer backlash, fines and vehicle recall costs to fix any law breach?

They were also in mass breach of vehicle emission laws. The fact that there was some backlash (although people didn't really stop buying VAG cars), people got prosecuted, the company got fined, didn't really change their decisions while they were pumping out fraudulent cars.

Yes, we should have privacy laws like this in the EU, this is a good thing! But thinking that, when these laws are in place, all companies magically will follow them is naive. To them it's still a cost/benefit analysis, and history has shown short term benefit trumps many other things for these companies.

Re: Removing the modem and GPS from my 2024 RAV4 hybrid

#454

Post by tpm »

GJim wrote: post #423
dualvariable wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of those things that can't ever be solved with individual solutions but needs to be solved through legislation and standards, and ideally a fundamental right to privacy (and a fundamental redefinition of what privacy means when it comes to corporate surveillance of individuals).

Needless to say, cars in the UK/EU have no such privacy invading features without an explicit opt-in thanks to sensible data protection legislation; including the GDPR. The FUD spouted on here by the scummy adtech industry about legislation to protect YOUR privacy is mind boggling. These are the people doing the digital equivalent of sniffing your underwear to work out what you had for breakfast. (And before somebody…

In addition to the eCall system, note there is also the mandatory OBFCM (On-board Fuel and/or Energy Consumption Monitoring Device), that data is then downloaded from the vehicles using OBD during checks.

The data is anonymized and you can opt out, but many people probably don't know it's collected in the first place.

Re: Removing the modem and GPS from my 2024 RAV4 hybrid

#455

Post by GJim »

jaapz wrote: post #453
GJim wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it seems just unbelievable that the statement is true So do you think UK/EU vehicle manufactures are deliberately in mass breach of data privacy law... fully knowing the cost of a consumer backlash, fines and vehicle recall costs to fix any law breach? Really? It's genuinely amazing how many Americans on here (a tech news site!) are unaware of data privacy law and expectations outside their homeland.

> So do you think UK/EU vehicle manufactures are deliberately in mass breach of data privacy law... fully knowing the cost of a consumer backlash, fines and vehicle recall costs to fix any law breach? They were also in mass breach of vehicle emission laws. The fact that there was some backlash (although people didn't really stop buying VAG cars), people got prosecuted, the company got fined, didn't really change thei…

ONE company did it (not a mass of them), resulting in massive fines and prosecutions; they certainly aren't going to do it again!

I'd also suggest the backlash from breaches in data privacy would be much larger than from fiddling emissions tests (as evil as the latter was, it actually saved many customers money on a (more polluting) car with higher performance).

Re: Removing the modem and GPS from my 2024 RAV4 hybrid

#456

Post by downloadram »

piaste wrote: post #39
andrepd wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you clarify? Does it feed it bullshit data? Because android auto expects car telemetry data which it streams to Google's servers. Which is a big no-no for me for obvious reasons.

It doesn't stop Android Auto from doing whatever with the car data, but it's sandboxed to have no more default privileges than a regular app, so it can be denied access to your phone's data by default (apps, contacts, etc.). Wireless AA will only work if you grant it extra privileges; wired AA does not need them. You can also "firewall" AA via something like TrackerControl, this would let you block connections to eg.…

tracker control will be itself blocked by android auto, with a stonewall error DISABLE VPN TO USE ANDROID AUTO

not sure if this was caused by an OS update or an AA update because im certain it used to work fine

(not graphene, but friends otherwise stock samsung android)

Re: Removing the modem and GPS from my 2024 RAV4 hybrid

#457

Post by golem14 »

GJim wrote: post #440
golem14 wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm tempted to say "oh you sweet summer child", because it seems just unbelievable that the statement is true (in the sense that the small print in rental cars and sales contracts doesn't allow it, ot it's done by law enforcement agencies surrepticiously). But maybe it IS true. I know it's legally mandated.

> it seems just unbelievable that the statement is true So do you think UK/EU vehicle manufactures are deliberately in mass breach of data privacy law... fully knowing the cost of a consumer backlash, fines and vehicle recall costs to fix any law breach? Really? It's genuinely amazing how many Americans on here (a tech news site!) are unaware of data privacy law and expectations outside their homeland.

I really do think there is a good chance that say MI5 or the BND or the DGSE flagrantly ignore the law to catch non-national evildoers, just as much as in the US. The temptation to do this 'in the name of security' is very high.

Of course, I can't or won't prove it.

And yes, I am _intimately_ familiar with the GDPR and other laws and regulations. The US also had (has) wiretapping laws that would have prevented snooping on Americans.

I'm not claiming the EU is no better than the US, it clearly has better intentions. But fundamentally, I think the EU will end up in the same place as the US sooner or later, simply because the same forces are at play: desire for security >> desire for privacy for most people if the rubber hits the road.

Here's some fun read for those who seek more info:

https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-privacy-watchdog-sid... https://www.bnd.bund.de/EN/Service/PrivacyPolicy/privacypoli... https://www.lexxion.eu/?newsletters_method=newsletter&id=477

Re: Removing the modem and GPS from my 2024 RAV4 hybrid

#458

Post by orloffm »

ricardobeat wrote: post #261
mono442 wrote: post #77

Modern cars are horrible. I recently discovered that all new cars sold in the EU constantly beep at you for supposedly speeding, even though the system doesn’t work well, and it has to be turned off every time you start the car.

They beep when you go above the speed limit, and only for a couple seconds. If they do that 'constantly' the problem is in the driver's seat... It takes two seconds to turn off in my car (though by law it has to reset on every drive), but I never bother. In situations where it's "ok" to drive a little over the limit, it's a small price to pay and a gentle reminder.

I've rented an Audi in Germany. On autobahns with 140 km/h speed limits there are lots of signs that limit speed to some low values like 50 km/h, but only under some conditions like snow, darkness, workday morning etc. Of course the car had no idea about those, started beeping for no reason and once even decided to do an emergency brake.

Re: Removing the modem and GPS from my 2024 RAV4 hybrid

#459

Post by orloffm »

trinix912 wrote: post #214
retired wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s horrible since it gets the speed wrong 25% of the time and 25% of the time it beeps because you are doing 33 in a 30kmh zone because you are just going along with traffic. When you get in a car, you have to spend 20 seconds disabling all those systems. Lane keep assist is downright dangerous as it keeps you in your lane if you do an emergency avoidance manoeuvre. I don’t hate safety system like emergency brake a…

My Honda Civic gets the speed wrong almost 100% of the time in Slovenia where intersections automatically cancel out non-zoned speed limit signs (so no crossed out signs that the car could read). Luckily it doesn’t beep or nag about it. (Which makes me wonder, is there a flag set to make it not beep on cars sold here? Cuz otherwise people would be returning them en masse)

It's the same in Poland. Toyota found a way that you can install some "immobilizer" thing that hacks the system into muting the alerts (but they still blink though) and was so proud that they started calling owners offering it for install. But all the cars do beep.

Re: Removing the modem and GPS from my 2024 RAV4 hybrid

#460

Post by PinguTS »

Be careful messing with your (modern) car like this. It may work at first glance. In some time in the future you may not be able to unlock your car.

As mentioned in the article as part of the introduction, there were problems with those car regarding security. Especially with the Rav4 where a colleague, Ken Tindell, showed a very serious flaw: https://kentindell.github.io/2023/04/03/can-injection/

Because of this OEMs build in more and more security, like SecOC with Autosar and other similar things. More and more of those security feature depend certificates in the devices that have an expiration time. Those certificates needs to be rotated regularly. If the rotation does not happen, because of missing communication with the mothership, then the security will fail, which finally will lock you out of your car.

That will be true for all the coming luxury car models.

IRC, Tesla has something like this for years in their cars. They can be offline for a certain period of time. But when this runs out, you will be out of luck.

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