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I resigned from OpenAI

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Re: I resigned from OpenAI

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Morals were invented to hold a larger group of humans together. Smaller groups can be held together by everyone knowing each other, larger groups required a more complex system of trust. Morals are the glue for nation states. Morals prevent us from driving over others, morals prevent us from being mean to others. Moral makes us trust the politicians we vote for because we are told they have the same morals as we. My…

You're saying that if we believe we share the same morals, then we're more likely to let things slide for the sake of harmony and less likely to hold violators accountable?

[dead]

Re: I resigned from OpenAI

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're saying that if we believe we share the same morals, then we're more likely to let things slide for the sake of harmony and less likely to hold violators accountable?

No I'm not saying that, that's your interpretation of what I am saying. What I'm saying is what I have written, no deeper meaning. What I said is that we vote for politicians whom we are told share our morals or we assume that they do. I don't make any judgement nor prediction what happens if that happens not to be the case - either before or after the event of voting.

Ok, so just taking it literally, you're saying that morals have just these three functions:

1. Morals prevent us from driving over others.

2. Morals prevent us from being mean to others.

3. Moral makes us trust the politicians.

And nothing more?

Re: I resigned from OpenAI

#163

Anybody who stays at openai is signing on to build machines that will be used to kill innocent people and control people who think that’s a bad idea.

> Anybody who stays at openai And paying off their mortgage and feeding their families and has a job in unstable times. Morals come a distant last in the current state of affairs.

Laughable.

These people are lusting for generational wealth, not scrambling to put bread on the table.

Re: I resigned from OpenAI

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree mass surveillance is fundamentally wrong, but it's reasonable for people to feel greater responsibility towards the citizens of your own country, and how they are treated by your government.

Maybe, but I still think it's an odd moral boundary to cross. You might feel as though it's fine to spy on Chinese citizens because of the relationship the US and China have, but what about Canadians or Australians or the Brits or any other NATO country? I get it might feel different, but is that really a hard moral line in the sand you refuse to crosss? Idk.

So the risks are different. If China does mass surveillance on us citizens, then what are the potential downsides? China can do targeted influence campaigns in the us, China can do targeted espionage in the us.

The harms that come from this are against us national security as a whole, the harms are not to individuals and civil liberties. Even if both China and US governments are bad actors, then the fact that China is spying on Americans will not affect Americans civil liberties.

On the other hand if the United States does mass surveillance on Americans, then that can be used by bad actor administrations to suppress dissent, throw people who disagree in prison, suppress speech. Essentially the government has the targeted ability to suppress civil liberties.

So it is very different, because the incentives and potential downsides are different. Similar with companies. Google does not have the ability to lock you up for your Google search, the federal government does (if you are American).

It's the same with Nato/allies, it's not about the country, it's about the spying governments ability and incentives to act on the information.

We don't want the stasi, but imagine a world where the stasi instead had millions of files on Scottish people. What is the worst the stasi could do? What is the worst they would be realistically incentivised to do?

Re: I resigned from OpenAI

#166
post #28

Good for Caitlin. Sam Altman is awful. He literally admitted on Twitter that they rushed their military contract to get it done. Are you kidding me? You rushed your military contract? Any employee who stays, especially given the financial cushion they have, is complicit. Shame on all of them. But here’s the sad truth: most of the knowledge workers at OpenAI won’t be of any value sometime soon because of the very tool…

You cant just blame everyone at OpenAI Everyone has their own unique situation

they all made 600k-800k USD and up and are highly employable, you definitely can blame them

Re: I resigned from OpenAI

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That’s the result of equating survival with earning money. Western societies have done a good job of ensuring that. OpenAI engineers with vested shares are not worried about having enough money to survive. This is a lame attempt to shoe-horn unrelated political talking points and “Western society bad” into a conversation about highly paid engineers who will have no problem putting food on the table.

I was responding to a question on why have morals if they have no application. If don’t like this example, how about folks going to church on Sundays listening to the Christian morals on not killing each other and during the week, these same folks work at the DoW organising wars around the world. Or the politician taking lobbyists money. Or those folks who engage in recreational drug use while fighting a “war on drug…

And in every case there are people like you making excuses for them. Engineers working at OpenAI are not scraping by to provide for their families. They don't get a pass to do unethical things to keep their jobs.

Re: I resigned from OpenAI

#168

Anybody who stays at openai is signing on to build machines that will be used to kill innocent people and control people who think that’s a bad idea.

> Anybody who stays at openai And paying off their mortgage and feeding their families and has a job in unstable times. Morals come a distant last in the current state of affairs.

No you need morals. Especially those fortunate enough to be hired by a leading company like OAI - they would be desired by any tech company.

Re: I resigned from OpenAI

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Why would you think my comment has anything to do with defending Trump or the US attacking Iran? It was about technology.

I don’t think your comment had anything to do with you defending Trump, I don’t think you are. I just drew the logical conclusion with respect to US and China striving for supremacy. While China is somewhat ‘in sync’ we have a leader who’s sawing chaos and impulsively starting wars without having long term plans. If something it adds to the point you were making. Cheers

Re: I resigned from OpenAI

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anybody who stays at openai And paying off their mortgage and feeding their families and has a job in unstable times. Morals come a distant last in the current state of affairs.

No, principles are even more important in unstable times. Anyone can excuse any behavior otherwise. And everyone at OpenAI has alternatives. This isn't choosing between prostitution or drug slinging to pay for baby formula for them. It is "how early can I retire" - and the answer should be later if it crosses boundaries. The ends do not justify the means.

What’s the last principled thing you did? Drive less to save the environment?

Easy to point fingers, harder to practice what you preach.

I know, this isn’t about you but then again it’s not about this one person who resigned either nor the employees of openai nor about anyone else.

I’ve provide an alternative PoV for why folks might not quit their jobs for their principles. Each to their own.

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