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Forstall Out; Ive Up

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Re: Forstall Out; Ive Up

#71

Post by MaysonL »

brudgers wrote: post #7

The idea that his leaving was based on the Maps debacle, may be correct. But not in the way that Gruber implies. The timing of his stock sale in May, is more consistent with the idea the Forstall foresaw the writing on the wall when he was made responsible for Maps. Selling 95% of his shares was clearly a sign that his long term commitment was in doubt. http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57425920-37/apple-exec-sco...

He did have, and currently still does have about 150,000 shares of restricted stock (substantially more than he sold), half of which vests in June of next year, half in 2016. To say that his May sale was anything more than reasonable financial planning is stretching it.

Re: Forstall Out; Ive Up

#72

Post by fleitz »

bane wrote: post #42
Steko wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'd help me if you gave examples what you think iOS could be doing that's it not. The big ticket feature that iOS didn't have 60 days ago was built in turn by turn maps. Since they added that with 6.0 I guess I'm wondering what else you're pining for? A weather widget? NFC? Fjords?

I'm principally talking about look and feel. iOS looks and operates great, let's get that out of the way. But it's essentially the same core design that was laid out in 2007 + Androidish notifications + multitasking-lite. At a glance can the average user tell the difference between iOS 2 or 3 and 6? I acknowledge that that's not necessarily an entirely worthy goal in and of itself, but keeping a design focused produc…

That's the advantage to great design, it doesn't need to change. Every year Android/Windows comes out with a new design that's finally supposed to make it not suck. Go find a 1984 Mac, look into the top right hand corner, whats there?

Re: Forstall Out; Ive Up

#73

Post by RegEx »

sedev wrote: post #68
brudgers wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comment is non-offensive and draws an analogy between two organizations which used propaganda effectively. Comparing Mr. Gruber's writings to those of fellow travelers is a legitimate comment on the possibility of editorial bias in the original article. I It is useful because it places the article within a larger historical context. It extends the content, and on HN, that is appropriate.

All right, let's go into specifics here. I strongly disagree with your description of the objectionable comment: * First, saying that it is "non-offensive" to compare someone to Stalin's regime (or more generally to the Soviet regimes) is so blatantly inaccurate that it's difficult to believe that you seriously advanced that claim. Let's set aside "offensive" and say merely that comparing someone to Stalin is in virt…

Wow... when it comes to proving your point, less is more.

Re: Forstall Out; Ive Up

#74

Post by alxp »

zachinglis wrote: post #31
Steko wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"iOS is stagnant" iOS only seems stagnant because they don't have to trumpet every year about how they've finally gotten rid of ui lag or completely overhauled the system appearance. These are points in it's favor to most people.

iOS has barely changed in UI since it's inception. That's not a good thing. No one designs the perfect design the fist time, nor the 100th time, nor ever. The goals and targets change and the design evolves. There has been no evolvement. Sure, there's more precise releases than it's competitors, but that doesn't negate the fact that Windows has a more functional-looking (whether or not it is, is an entirely different…

The original MacOS design wasn't 'perfect' but it was very, very good. And Apple messed with it at their peril. They gave themselves a similar bar with iOS 1.0 - they know a lot about interaction design, and how to make a UI feel smooth and intuitive, and they aren't going to scrap all of those good decisions for the sake of looking new.

By contrast Microsoft have some interesting design ideas but they abandon them in the very next major version in favour of trying something else, which is jarring for users and doesn't inspire trust.

Re: Forstall Out; Ive Up

#75

Post by alxp »

zachinglis wrote: post #31
Steko wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"iOS is stagnant" iOS only seems stagnant because they don't have to trumpet every year about how they've finally gotten rid of ui lag or completely overhauled the system appearance. These are points in it's favor to most people.

iOS has barely changed in UI since it's inception. That's not a good thing. No one designs the perfect design the fist time, nor the 100th time, nor ever. The goals and targets change and the design evolves. There has been no evolvement. Sure, there's more precise releases than it's competitors, but that doesn't negate the fact that Windows has a more functional-looking (whether or not it is, is an entirely different…

The original MacOS design wasn't 'perfect' but it was very, very good. And Apple messed with it at their peril. They gave themselves a similar bar with iOS 1.0 - they know a lot about interaction design, and how to make a UI feel smooth and intuitive, and they aren't going to scrap all of those good decisions for the sake of looking new.

By contrast Microsoft have some interesting design ideas but they abandon them in the very next major version in favour of trying something else, which is jarring for users and doesn't inspire trust.

Re: Forstall Out; Ive Up

#76

Post by roc »

Steko wrote: post #35
bane wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose, iOS hit a higher quality product much earlier than Android. But to me it feels like an evolutionary dead-end. Sure they aren't fixing any problems, but they sure aren't really adding anything to make my life better. Or another evolutionary analogy: crocodiles have more or less been around forever -- they don't have to trumpet about solving calorie intake problems, or overheating in the summer, but it took…

It'd help me if you gave examples what you think iOS could be doing that's it not. The big ticket feature that iOS didn't have 60 days ago was built in turn by turn maps. Since they added that with 6.0 I guess I'm wondering what else you're pining for? A weather widget? NFC? Fjords?

Intents/services and lock screen widgets.

Home screen and notification center widgets don't interest me. But if you could put something like widgets/live tiles/google now-ish space on the lock screen? Particularly with the increased vertical space? That'd be slick.

And intents/services are overdue. Particularly now that they're basically "in" with twitter/Facebook integration. I'm all for having more app store approval scrutiny for third party "services" submissions. But it needs to be in.

while we're asking, it wouldn't hurt to add the "taller"/redesigned task switcher UI that made the rounds recently.

I'd call that all a decent update.

Re: Forstall Out; Ive Up

#77

Post by jewbacca »

sedev wrote: post #43
nir wrote: post #3

"That makes it all the more telling that Apple’s press release contains no quote from Tim Cook offering kind words or thanks to Forstall." Indeed, this has been expected since Jony Ive was observed standing immediately to Tim Cook's right at the last Red Square May Day parade.

That comment didn't add anything to the discussion. The comparison you made is not helpful to anyone's understanding of the situation. Please don't do that. Hold yourself to a higher standard in the future.

Giving nir the benefit of the doubt, I read his comment as a pretty clear reference:

> "Kremlinology is the study and analysis of Soviet (and today, Russian) politics and policies based on efforts to understand the inner workings of an opaque central government"

[...]

> "During the Cold War, lack of reliable information about the country forced Western analysts to "read between the lines" and to use the tiniest tidbits, such as the removal of portraits, the rearranging of chairs, positions at the reviewing stand for parades in Red Square, the choice of capital or small initial letters in phrases such as "First Secretary", the arrangement of articles on the pages of the party newspaper "Pravda" and other indirect signs to try to understand what was happening in internal Soviet politics. In the German language, such attempts acquired the somewhat derisive name "Kreml-Astrologie" (Kremlin Astrology), hinting at the fact that its results were often vague and inconclusive, if not outright wrong."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kremlinology

----

If you read it this way too, and responded how you have making the same assumptions I did... then I suppose you are just a more civil-minded person than I am. I thought it was a worthwhile contribution, and as much as I love to keep HN's signal:noise high, I have a soft spot for this kind of sardonicism. And I think it was an important reminder amidst this highly speculative discussion, that I don't see any other comment making as tersely.

Re: Forstall Out; Ive Up

#78

Post by roc »

sedev wrote: post #43
nir wrote: post #3

"That makes it all the more telling that Apple’s press release contains no quote from Tim Cook offering kind words or thanks to Forstall." Indeed, this has been expected since Jony Ive was observed standing immediately to Tim Cook's right at the last Red Square May Day parade.

That comment didn't add anything to the discussion. The comparison you made is not helpful to anyone's understanding of the situation. Please don't do that. Hold yourself to a higher standard in the future.

I seem to recall even Gruber himself has drawn the comparison between Kremlinology and reading Apple PR between the lines.

I read it as a satirical joke. A little "on the nose", perhaps. But just a joke.

(Edit: cleaned up repetition.)

Re: Forstall Out; Ive Up

#79

Post by killahpriest »

Steko wrote: post #39
chc wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was pretty clear that he was talking about visual design and interaction. None of the things you list here are in that domain. One is a new app, one is a voice UI and one is an Internet-based storage service.

"None of the things you list here are in that domain. One is a new app ..." Since the very sentence I was responding too was about apps ("iOS is stagnant, reviews of recent Apple designed skeuo-heavy apps bemone the lack of functionality") I fail to see how talking about app functionality is some huge leap of logic on my part. "he was talking about visual design and interaction. None of the things you list here are i…

Perhaps it should be read as "visual design and [visual] interaction."

Re: Forstall Out; Ive Up

#80

Post by chc »

bennyg wrote: post #57
chc wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was pretty clear that he was talking about visual design and interaction. None of the things you list here are in that domain. One is a new app, one is a voice UI and one is an Internet-based storage service.

You think voice integration isn't interaction? That's literally a form of interaction with the device that was not there in iOS 1.

I feel pretty sure there was a "visual" in there you're ignoring.
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