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Forstall Out; Ive Up

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Re: Forstall Out; Ive Up

#31

Post by zachinglis »

Steko wrote: post #17
bane wrote: post #6

May be the second time I've found a genuinely insightful piece by Gruber. Skeuomorphic design was a nod to my non-computer using father in the 90s. It no more represents useful metaphors for interfaces than steam engines represent a good way to build cars. iOS is stagnant, reviews of recent Apple designed skeuo-heavy apps bemone the lack of functionality -- while noting what must be hundreds of hours of graphics work…

"iOS is stagnant" iOS only seems stagnant because they don't have to trumpet every year about how they've finally gotten rid of ui lag or completely overhauled the system appearance. These are points in it's favor to most people.

iOS has barely changed in UI since it's inception. That's not a good thing. No one designs the perfect design the fist time, nor the 100th time, nor ever. The goals and targets change and the design evolves. There has been no evolvement.

Sure, there's more precise releases than it's competitors, but that doesn't negate the fact that Windows has a more functional-looking (whether or not it is, is an entirely different matter) phone.

The Notification centre was a step in the right direction, but people are wanting data quicker more and more, and the notificiations aren't great for every app. After all, a big reason people cite for going for Android is customisation.

When the iPhone was released it was the absolute leader in mobile iOS among other things. Now it's a solid competer but it lacks the originality it once had.

Re: Forstall Out; Ive Up

#32

Post by tnorthcutt »

Good read. However:

One of the things I admire about Apple is their plainspokenness, both in advertising and in press releases. ... Thinking about it some more, though, and considering what I know about Forstall’s reputation within the company, I think that headline, euphemistic though it is, tells the plain truth:

This, to me, reads as "Apple is plainspoken. Ok, so they're not, but let me convince you that even when they're not, they really are, it's just in disguise!"

Why go to such lengths? Why even bring that up? It's hardly a critical part of the article.

I'm genuinely curious, by the way - please, someone show me how I'm wrong.

Re: Forstall Out; Ive Up

#33

Post by tatsuke95 »

bane wrote: post #6

May be the second time I've found a genuinely insightful piece by Gruber. Skeuomorphic design was a nod to my non-computer using father in the 90s. It no more represents useful metaphors for interfaces than steam engines represent a good way to build cars. iOS is stagnant, reviews of recent Apple designed skeuo-heavy apps bemone the lack of functionality -- while noting what must be hundreds of hours of graphics work…

Care to do an "Explain like I'm 5" about skeuopmorphism vs path dependence?

I'm not sure I understand it in the context of device design.

Edit: or are they talking specifically about app design?

Re: Forstall Out; Ive Up

#34

Post by chc »

Steko wrote: post #28
ChrisClark wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say it is stagnant because when you look at the design, it just feels old. I'm not much of a designer, I can't tell you why, but it just seems dated. Perhaps it is the skeuomorphism, maybe something else, but something is off about it now.

I don't see much stagnation: (1) Maps is probably the biggest thing they've done since the original phone's launch; (2) they are moving more and more of the interaction to voice every year; (3) they are moving more and more of the users' data to the cloud every year.

It was pretty clear that he was talking about visual design and interaction. None of the things you list here are in that domain. One is a new app, one is a voice UI and one is an Internet-based storage service.

Re: Forstall Out; Ive Up

#35

Post by Steko »

bane wrote: post #27
Steko wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"iOS is stagnant" iOS only seems stagnant because they don't have to trumpet every year about how they've finally gotten rid of ui lag or completely overhauled the system appearance. These are points in it's favor to most people.

I suppose, iOS hit a higher quality product much earlier than Android. But to me it feels like an evolutionary dead-end. Sure they aren't fixing any problems, but they sure aren't really adding anything to make my life better. Or another evolutionary analogy: crocodiles have more or less been around forever -- they don't have to trumpet about solving calorie intake problems, or overheating in the summer, but it took…

It'd help me if you gave examples what you think iOS could be doing that's it not. The big ticket feature that iOS didn't have 60 days ago was built in turn by turn maps. Since they added that with 6.0 I guess I'm wondering what else you're pining for? A weather widget? NFC? Fjords?

Re: Forstall Out; Ive Up

#36

Post by sunraa »

susanhi wrote: post #24

Is this the new Jony Ive Apple? Ive is Apple's new Product Chief (heads hardware and software design across whole company). Federighi (Mac OS and iOS), Mansfield (Tech), Cue (Services & Content), Williams (Supply Chain), Schiller (Marketing) - all in support roles to Ive. Under Steve Jobs, product and design was consolidated under himself. He had the ultimate say as to what shipped and he was the toughest curator. No…

It seems it was only a matter of time until Ive took over as true heir apparent to SJ in this respect. Will be interesting to see how the relationship with Cook works and if it pans out in a similar fashion as it did with SJ+Cook.

Re: Forstall Out; Ive Up

#37

Post by thelibrarian »

tnorthcutt wrote: post #32

Good read. However: One of the things I admire about Apple is their plainspokenness, both in advertising and in press releases. ... Thinking about it some more, though, and considering what I know about Forstall’s reputation within the company, I think that headline, euphemistic though it is, tells the plain truth: This, to me, reads as "Apple is plainspoken. Ok, so they're not, but let me convince you that even when…

I think what Gruber was trying to say here is that (in his opinion at least) Apple is usually plainspoken, but in this case they were not because they were being polite to Forstall by being euphemistic rather than plainly saying that he was given the arse.

Re: Forstall Out; Ive Up

#38

Post by SoftwareMaven »

brudgers wrote: post #23
erifneerg wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forstall may have been trying to do a move similar to what Jobs did when he returned to Apple. Jobs lost confidence in where the company was going and sold all but one of his shares. The maps may have called Forstall's "bluff".

One thing is pretty certain. The decision to dump Google was probably made above Forestall's pay grade. I suspect that the decision to include Maps in the next release of iOS happened about the same time as the decision to dump the stock. Stock sale announced in May, Maps announced in June.

I wish this meme (that, in no uncertain terms, Apple dumped Google) woud die. This is a very large contract between two large, competing companies.

If I were looking only at the impact of the iOS decision, I would have a hard time believing that Google didn't tell Apple to piss off, but I think even that reading is far too simplistic.

Re: Forstall Out; Ive Up

#39

Post by Steko »

chc wrote: post #34
Steko wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see much stagnation: (1) Maps is probably the biggest thing they've done since the original phone's launch; (2) they are moving more and more of the interaction to voice every year; (3) they are moving more and more of the users' data to the cloud every year.

It was pretty clear that he was talking about visual design and interaction. None of the things you list here are in that domain. One is a new app, one is a voice UI and one is an Internet-based storage service.

"None of the things you list here are in that domain. One is a new app ..."

Since the very sentence I was responding too was about apps ("iOS is stagnant, reviews of recent Apple designed skeuo-heavy apps bemone the lack of functionality") I fail to see how talking about app functionality is some huge leap of logic on my part.

"he was talking about visual design and interaction. None of the things you list here are in that domain"

How is voice control not about interaction?

Re: Forstall Out; Ive Up

#40

Post by cooldeal »

danilocampos wrote: post #13
Jonanin wrote: post #11

Can someone please tell me why this is worthy of HN front page? He hasn't said anything new at all; almost half of the article quotes and the other half has already been iterated countless times in the press release thread. Gruber really isn't adding anything to the discussion, so why do we need him to parse it again for us?

> Can someone please tell me why this is worthy of HN front page? Sure! I'd be happy to. The way Hacker News works is, people submit content. If people like the content, they vote it up. Sufficiently high-voted content reaches the front page. 55 people have voted this up at the time of this comment, feeling the content was worth their attention. Given the recency of the content relative to the votes it has received,…

And a similar set of people flag down Paul Thurrotts's http://winsupersite.com so much that it's banned from HN just for being a Microsoft insider. Just because a narrowminded mob does something doesn't make it right.
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