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Forstall Out; Ive Up

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Re: Forstall Out; Ive Up

#41

Post by mikeash »

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #38
brudgers wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing is pretty certain. The decision to dump Google was probably made above Forestall's pay grade. I suspect that the decision to include Maps in the next release of iOS happened about the same time as the decision to dump the stock. Stock sale announced in May, Maps announced in June.

I wish this meme (that, in no uncertain terms, Apple dumped Google) woud die. This is a very large contract between two large, competing companies. If I were looking only at the impact of the iOS decision, I would have a hard time believing that Google didn't tell Apple to piss off, but I think even that reading is far too simplistic.

Agreed. Apple had a set of requirements, and Google had a set of requirements (both sets including, of course, the question of money), and they couldn't come up with a set of mutually agreeable terms, so they parted ways.

To place responsibility fully on either company is silly. No company of that size is simply going to say "no". There's always a price, and Apple decided it wasn't worthwhile.

Re: Forstall Out; Ive Up

#42

Post by bane »

Steko wrote: post #35
bane wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose, iOS hit a higher quality product much earlier than Android. But to me it feels like an evolutionary dead-end. Sure they aren't fixing any problems, but they sure aren't really adding anything to make my life better. Or another evolutionary analogy: crocodiles have more or less been around forever -- they don't have to trumpet about solving calorie intake problems, or overheating in the summer, but it took…

It'd help me if you gave examples what you think iOS could be doing that's it not. The big ticket feature that iOS didn't have 60 days ago was built in turn by turn maps. Since they added that with 6.0 I guess I'm wondering what else you're pining for? A weather widget? NFC? Fjords?

I'm principally talking about look and feel. iOS looks and operates great, let's get that out of the way. But it's essentially the same core design that was laid out in 2007 + Androidish notifications + multitasking-lite. At a glance can the average user tell the difference between iOS 2 or 3 and 6?

I acknowledge that that's not necessarily an entirely worthy goal in and of itself, but keeping a design focused product fresh does have its merits.

Here's iOS 1 and 5 side by side

http://pocketnow.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/ios1ios5.png

Other than the obvious lack of a wallpaper I'm not really sure that there's been any fundamental work on improving the user interaction and look & feel of the thing in 5 years.

I find it unbelievable that there's nothing that could be done better and that iOS was launched with perfect interaction design, fully formed from the heads of the designers, or perfect visual design, reverently propagated to the modern day and on into the future.

Is this really the penultimate in volume slider design? There's no more work to be done here?

http://www.uiparade.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/clean-ios...

I think this recent shakeup is Apple signaling that it's time to evolve again and that excites me much more than the last 2 or 3 product launches have.

If anybody can put out a new way of pushing electrons around and making it "just work" it's going to be Apple and I want to see what they come up with.

Re: Forstall Out; Ive Up

#43

Post by sedev »

nir wrote: post #3

"That makes it all the more telling that Apple’s press release contains no quote from Tim Cook offering kind words or thanks to Forstall." Indeed, this has been expected since Jony Ive was observed standing immediately to Tim Cook's right at the last Red Square May Day parade.

That comment didn't add anything to the discussion. The comparison you made is not helpful to anyone's understanding of the situation. Please don't do that. Hold yourself to a higher standard in the future.

Re: Forstall Out; Ive Up

#44

Post by msbarnett »

bengl3rt wrote: post #15
nir wrote: post #3

"That makes it all the more telling that Apple’s press release contains no quote from Tim Cook offering kind words or thanks to Forstall." Indeed, this has been expected since Jony Ive was observed standing immediately to Tim Cook's right at the last Red Square May Day parade.

You joke, but Apple is a pretty terse company. Sometimes you have to read between the tea leaves (pun/misappropriation 100% intended)

It's barely even a joke. There's a reason Apple watchers refer to what they do as "Kremlinology".

Re: Forstall Out; Ive Up

#45

Post by recoiledsnake »

danilocampos wrote: post #13
Jonanin wrote: post #11

Can someone please tell me why this is worthy of HN front page? He hasn't said anything new at all; almost half of the article quotes and the other half has already been iterated countless times in the press release thread. Gruber really isn't adding anything to the discussion, so why do we need him to parse it again for us?

> Can someone please tell me why this is worthy of HN front page? Sure! I'd be happy to. The way Hacker News works is, people submit content. If people like the content, they vote it up. Sufficiently high-voted content reaches the front page. 55 people have voted this up at the time of this comment, feeling the content was worth their attention. Given the recency of the content relative to the votes it has received,…

him: why did people elect Hitler?

you: Explaining how votes are tallied.

Technically correct but totally useless.

Re: Forstall Out; Ive Up

#46

Post by brudgers »

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #38
brudgers wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing is pretty certain. The decision to dump Google was probably made above Forestall's pay grade. I suspect that the decision to include Maps in the next release of iOS happened about the same time as the decision to dump the stock. Stock sale announced in May, Maps announced in June.

I wish this meme (that, in no uncertain terms, Apple dumped Google) woud die. This is a very large contract between two large, competing companies. If I were looking only at the impact of the iOS decision, I would have a hard time believing that Google didn't tell Apple to piss off, but I think even that reading is far too simplistic.

Perhaps it is too simplistic, but the alternative Apple chose suggests hubris. I suspect that TomTom or Garmin or even OpenStreetMap would have been glad to partner with them to develop an app to replace Google Maps. Instead, Apple chose a homegrown solution, quality be damned and then threw TomTom under the bus when Maps was released half baked.

The decision to adopt not invented here as corporate policy backfired. Forestall was probably prescient enough to see where it was headed.

Re: Forstall Out; Ive Up

#47

Post by bane »

Steko wrote: post #28
ChrisClark wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say it is stagnant because when you look at the design, it just feels old. I'm not much of a designer, I can't tell you why, but it just seems dated. Perhaps it is the skeuomorphism, maybe something else, but something is off about it now.

I don't see much stagnation: (1) Maps is probably the biggest thing they've done since the original phone's launch; (2) they are moving more and more of the interaction to voice every year; (3) they are moving more and more of the users' data to the cloud every year.

IMHO it's definitely running in place

1 - replaced what they already had and then moved it up to feature parity with the competitors

2 - pioneered it then let it sit, is Siri really that much better and personally assisting me today then at launch?

3 - which appears to be only a response to the competition's great cloud integration

perhaps stagnation is too strong a word... tread-milling perhaps?

Re: Forstall Out; Ive Up

#48

Post by GuiA »

cooldeal wrote: post #40
danilocampos wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can someone please tell me why this is worthy of HN front page? Sure! I'd be happy to. The way Hacker News works is, people submit content. If people like the content, they vote it up. Sufficiently high-voted content reaches the front page. 55 people have voted this up at the time of this comment, feeling the content was worth their attention. Given the recency of the content relative to the votes it has received,…

And a similar set of people flag down Paul Thurrotts's http://winsupersite.com so much that it's banned from HN just for being a Microsoft insider. Just because a narrowminded mob does something doesn't make it right.

No, but no one forces you to be part of the mob.

Re: Forstall Out; Ive Up

#49

Post by jader201 »

bane wrote: post #42
Steko wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'd help me if you gave examples what you think iOS could be doing that's it not. The big ticket feature that iOS didn't have 60 days ago was built in turn by turn maps. Since they added that with 6.0 I guess I'm wondering what else you're pining for? A weather widget? NFC? Fjords?

I'm principally talking about look and feel. iOS looks and operates great, let's get that out of the way. But it's essentially the same core design that was laid out in 2007 + Androidish notifications + multitasking-lite. At a glance can the average user tell the difference between iOS 2 or 3 and 6? I acknowledge that that's not necessarily an entirely worthy goal in and of itself, but keeping a design focused produc…

All of what you've listed is just repeating the same point: iOS hasn't changed much since its inception. But you're still not answering the question: what needs to change?

Don't get me wrong, it's not that I think it can't be improved, because I can think of a few needed improvements myself. But I hear people continue to say this about Apple -- "They aren't innovating lately." -- without saying what needs to change.

So, without just comparing iOS1 vs. iOS6, what about the current state of iOS needs to change?

Re: Forstall Out; Ive Up

#50

Post by XaspR8d »

tatsuke95 wrote: post #33
bane wrote: post #6

May be the second time I've found a genuinely insightful piece by Gruber. Skeuomorphic design was a nod to my non-computer using father in the 90s. It no more represents useful metaphors for interfaces than steam engines represent a good way to build cars. iOS is stagnant, reviews of recent Apple designed skeuo-heavy apps bemone the lack of functionality -- while noting what must be hundreds of hours of graphics work…

Care to do an "Explain like I'm 5" about skeuopmorphism vs path dependence ? I'm not sure I understand it in the context of device design. Edit: or are they talking specifically about app design?

The way I understand it is that skeuomorphism is about using design to elicit elements or interactions that formerly served a purpose (i.e. making a keyboard look like typewriter keys), whereas path-dependence is about current schemes whose continuing popularity is more due to a quirk of history that gave its use better returns rather than being proven against others (i.e. the QWERTY keyboard).
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