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IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

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Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#791

Post by tovej »

yoavm wrote: post #765
karim79 wrote: post #679

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually got accused of being racist for saying that anti-zionism and anti-semitism are not the same thing.

I know Zionism as the idea that Jewish people have the right to self-determination. Do you: 1 - Think that it is something different? 2 - Think that it is, but Jewish people specifically do not have it? (I believe this is racist) 3 - Think that no people have it? 4 - Something else? If you think that Jewish people have it but just not in Palestine, where in the world do you think they should have had it?

The Jewish people already loving in Palestine had a right to live there.

The problem is when you try to forcefully displace an entire civilian population to make way for a colonial movement.

In the same way I, as a Finn, would not have the right to take over any region in the Urals and kick out the people who live there, the Zionists had no right to do just that in Palestine since over a hundred years ago.

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#792

Post by aa-jv »

mattmaroon wrote: post #210
jajuuka wrote: post #165

I just wanna say it's nice to see more people finally waking up and smelling the ashes. I can only hope in the future this genocide will be studied to better understand the main points of failure to not repeat such a widely event covered event.

It’s strange to me when otherwise intelligent people call this genocide. Genocide is an attempt to exterminate an entire people. Israel is a nuclear armed nation fighting against the equivalent of Dayton, OH. If genocide were the goal this war would have lasted one day. Collective punishment, or a long term ethnic cleansing would be much more accurate, but you’re just repeating what you read unthinkingly if you say g…

>If genocide were the goal this war would have lasted one day.

And the retaliation from the rest of the world in those circumstances would be swift and measured in hours, and there would be a smoking pile of rubble in that particular part of the world that would be uninhabitable for centuries.

So instead, Israel is cooking the frog.

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#793

Post by aa-jv »

erezsh wrote: post #479
zorked wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your are using an argument similar to the repugnant logic of Holocaust deniers. They use claims that Germany could have easily killed Jews /even faster/ as an argument to claim that they didn't commit genocide /at all/.

It's a ridiculous argument. The Nazis went through a LOT of effort and resources to gather Jews from all the corners of Europe, and even more effort into exterminating them as fast as they could, within the logistical and economic constraints of fighting a 3 front war. There's no comparison at all to the ease with which Israel could just drop a couple of bombs on Gaza, had it decided to do so.

You seem to be ignoring the retaliation that would be enacted at a drop of a couple of those bombs.

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#794

Post by dijit »

raducu wrote: post #788
dijit wrote: post #756

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Attempting to use this as a defense requires conceding that the default assumption is that someone is a terrorist until proven otherwise All other things being equal, if your opponent engages actively in hiding among medical and press workers as a type of guerrilla warfare, then the reality does become this. I'm trying to say this dispassionately because I'm aware that people get defensive, but lets say that you ha…

> All other things being equal, if your opponent engages actively in hiding among medical and press workers as a type of guerrilla warfare, then the reality does become this. So let me check this reasoning: if there was a single US soldier in the WTC towers, the 9/11 attacks were justified because the soldiers were hiding among the civilians? Or if Hamas killed a single israelian soldier in their horrendous attacks i…

You've collapsed two meaningfully different things into one: 'soldiers exist near civilians' and 'soldiers deliberately operate from within protected populations as a systematic tactic.' Your three examples all illustrate the first. I was describing the second. These are not the same argument, and treating them as equivalent doesn't advance the discussion.

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#795

Post by archievillain »

yoavm wrote: post #765
karim79 wrote: post #679

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually got accused of being racist for saying that anti-zionism and anti-semitism are not the same thing.

I know Zionism as the idea that Jewish people have the right to self-determination. Do you: 1 - Think that it is something different? 2 - Think that it is, but Jewish people specifically do not have it? (I believe this is racist) 3 - Think that no people have it? 4 - Something else? If you think that Jewish people have it but just not in Palestine, where in the world do you think they should have had it?

Zionism is the support of the Israeli colonial project. Jewish people have a right to self-determination regardless of Israel's existence; Israel's existence does not determine the right of self-determination for all jews. As such, the two things are not the same.

Zionism, then, is just support for a specific state (Israel), and support or lack or support for a state given its actions (colonial oppression) is not bigotry. Disliking a genocidal ethnostate does not influence in any way how you feel about the Jewish people as an ethnic and religious group. As such, anti-zionism and anti-semitism are not the same.

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#796

Post by bawolff »

xorcist wrote: post #748
bawolff wrote: post #674

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was alive at the time. While there were some protests, i dont recall them being all that significant, and many of the objecting voices seemed more concerned with the price tag rather than the human cost.

This is pure misinformation. I have personally never seen such large crows as the anti war demonstrations of 2002-2003. There 100k people marching several times for several weeks in the European capitals I know. Some estimate that these were even bigger than the demonstrations against the war in Vietnam in the 1960s. These put the total number of people going out in demonstrations world wide at 30M+. This war was mas…

Hmm, i googled it and i guess you were right. I suppose subjectively it was something i didn't particularly notice at the time.

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#797

Post by Parae »

yoavm wrote: post #765
karim79 wrote: post #679

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually got accused of being racist for saying that anti-zionism and anti-semitism are not the same thing.

I know Zionism as the idea that Jewish people have the right to self-determination. Do you: 1 - Think that it is something different? 2 - Think that it is, but Jewish people specifically do not have it? (I believe this is racist) 3 - Think that no people have it? 4 - Something else? If you think that Jewish people have it but just not in Palestine, where in the world do you think they should have had it?

You're wrong on the definition of zionism. Zionism is a European nationalist movement that uses the assumption there is a consensual concept of "homogeneous jewish people" who have the right to self-determination to justify Palestine's colonization.

Anti-zionism is being against the colonization of Palestine and being against nationalism and supremacism.

Anti-semitism is hating someone because of the are jew.

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#798

Post by [deleted] »

glenstein wrote: post #169
ignoramous wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All the hospitals are now rubble Hospitals may have been used for retaliation [0], but it is unclear how many & in what capacity (according to accepted conventions, using a hospital to treat wounded combatants wouldn't make it a valid military target, for example; but hiding weapons or personnel would). [0] One such recent report: https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/...

Not sure I understand the mass downvotes on this one. I didn't take it as endorsing the action but summarizing the rationale.

[deleted]

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#799

Post by friendzis »

bawolff wrote: post #695
apexalpha wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very thorough. Thanks for the direct link. The case seems pretty clear, especially since the soldiers tried to hide all evidence.

I think the only defense here would be if the soldiers came up with some reasonable explanation of why they thought the vehicles were hostile. Its kind of hard to imagine, especially with shooting the follow up vehicles, but motive seems like the only unclear part where there is any potential for a defense. One part that is really confusing, is if they knowingly intentionally targeted the ambulance because they thoug…

Intimidation tactics do not work well without someone to tell the story.

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#800

Post by Parae »

n4r9 wrote: post #328
guerrilla wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hamas was insane to think that Bibi would NOT BOMB the Gaza in retaliation. My theory is that they knew this would happen and they did it because they knew it would garner support (which it did) and they also knew they had nothing to lose because this is what would have happened in the long-term anyway. They chose between a quick death and a slow death. Unfortunately, everyone else who originally chose them to prot…

Let's also not forget that Hamas still exists and is regaining numbers and territory: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c98g1klxnpxo You can't just stamp out a guerilla resistance the way Israel have tried to do. I suspect Hamas reckoned that a well-timed short term sacrifice would turn global opinion against Israel.

The genocide and ethnic cleansing Israel is committing is the best recruitment campaign for Hamas.
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