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IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

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Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#741

Post by bawolff »

tovej wrote: post #734
bawolff wrote: post #704

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Upon reaching the aid workers, the soldiers moved between them and the vehicles and executed some of the aid workers at point blank range, as close as one meter away." -> we know not all the aid workers were killed. I believe two were taken alive. This is the part that gives me the most pause. The FA report makes it sound like they went on a murder spree for the hell of it and then tried to cover up the evidence (i…

You leave witnesses because a) you know nobody will prosecute the IDF, and b) it allows people like you to question whether the clear mass murder was a mass murder.

> you know nobody will prosecute the IDF

Then why bother with the cover up at all?

FWIW, to me what it looks like based on the very limited information we have, is initially the soldiers thought (for whatever reason, possibly unreasonably) the vehicle was an acceptable target. At some point it becomes clear it wasn't and they have an "oh shit" moment and engage in a cover up after the fact.

If this is actually what happened (obviously,very big if), whether or not a war crime was comitted would come down to what the soldiers knew when they attacked the vehicle (and what would have been reasonable for them to have known at that time) since war crimes do have an intent element.

Which to be very clear, even with all the above, its very plausible a war crime was comitted. But i'm not sure its certain based on the publicly available information.

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#744

Post by sharts »

austin-cheney wrote: post #484
greedo wrote: post #259

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/sep/09/the-gaza-famil... Read that and tell me that Israel is acting proportionally...

If video evidence indicates IDF personnel committing these crimes also happen to be US citizens I wonder if those people could face criminal prosecution in the US. As an American I wouldn't want to live next to or do business with a serial murderer. I certainly wouldn't want them coaching my kids sports or other community involvement.

Israel doesn’t extradite to the US. Hence why so many pedos escape to there

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#745

Post by austin-cheney »

troosevelt wrote: post #729
deaux wrote: post #721

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Its not automatic due to bot activity. It is from people actively suppressing stories that don't want other people to see. Correct! The same people behind the US purchase of TikTok, for the same reason.

You're attributing a whole lot of agency to things that might have different factors. I can't downvote becuase though I've read HN since 2007ish, this is a new account. I would, however, probably downvote threads like this becuase out of all 600 comments, I don't think very many people have learned anything and a lot of blatantly false and sometimes racist stuff has been shared by people of every persuasion. I don't…

These discussions are absolutely necessary because it’s the best we have to stay informed. If accuracy and credibility were more important we would have foreign journalists there on the ground providing factual information.

So, yes, Gaza is bettered by comments like these.

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#747

Post by sharts »

xdennis wrote: post #660
xg15 wrote: post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the Palestinians then?

Historically, Palestine has never been a country. The Romans captured Judea, and later expelled the Jews and renamed the province Syria Palaestina (after previous enemies of the Jews). After the Romans, many other empires held the land: the Arabs, Mamluks, Turks, British. But at no point was it a country. Even when the Egyptians and Jordanians captured Gaza and the West Bank, they didn't give independence to Palestin…

There are official old coins, newspapers, etc. with Palestine written on them. It has long been an entity.

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#748

Post by xorcist »

bawolff wrote: post #674
LightBug1 wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tens of millions protested the US response. Today they still spit to the side when having to say the name George Bush or Tony Blair, among others. You either weren't there, have a bad memory, are watching typically mainstream new sources, or are willfully ignoring the voices that are having that conversation today. Many of the ills today can be traced back to powers grabbed at the time to assist that so-called "war o…

I was alive at the time. While there were some protests, i dont recall them being all that significant, and many of the objecting voices seemed more concerned with the price tag rather than the human cost.

This is pure misinformation. I have personally never seen such large crows as the anti war demonstrations of 2002-2003. There 100k people marching several times for several weeks in the European capitals I know.

Some estimate that these were even bigger than the demonstrations against the war in Vietnam in the 1960s. These put the total number of people going out in demonstrations world wide at 30M+. This war was massively protested against, any which way you count.

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#749

Post by dataflow »

bawolff wrote: post #695
apexalpha wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very thorough. Thanks for the direct link. The case seems pretty clear, especially since the soldiers tried to hide all evidence.

I think the only defense here would be if the soldiers came up with some reasonable explanation of why they thought the vehicles were hostile. Its kind of hard to imagine, especially with shooting the follow up vehicles, but motive seems like the only unclear part where there is any potential for a defense. One part that is really confusing, is if they knowingly intentionally targeted the ambulance because they thoug…

> One part that is really confusing, is if they knowingly intentionally targeted the ambulance because they thought they could get away with it if they destroyed the evidence, why leave witnesses alive? If you assume the motive was an intentional massacre with point blank executions, it doesn't entirely make logical sense to leave witnesses.

Couldn't the ability to make this very argument be a reason why?

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#750

Post by tsimionescu »

YZF wrote: post #720
kombine wrote: post #685

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That the anti-Israelis are going to latch on it as proof that Israel is evil is an unfortunate side effect. Defenders of Israel always try to put a label on us: anti-Semites, anti-Iaraelis etc. You are trying to make it seem like this was some kind of isolated incident, an unfortunate consequence of the war. It wasn't: Gaza is in ruins, Israel continues ethnic cleansing in West Bank all while gaslighting everyone w…

[flagged]

> Gaza is in ruins because it attacked Israel.

Gaza has been under Israeli occupation for 50+ years. It didn't "attack Israel", it attacked its occupiers, it is an occupied part of Israel itself, de facto.

> As to the Israeli policy in the west bank I generally do not support it but it's mostly only tangentially related.

It is much more than tangentially related. It shows that the Hamas attacks was mostly just a pretext, and that the Israeli government and some part of the population is going to attack or steal land from Palestinians regardless of any provocation. If there were no ongoing oppression in the West Bank, you could maybe make a case that the razing of Gaza is really strictly a reaction to the October 7th attack. But that is an absurd position when you look at the ongoing and accelerating oppression happening in the West Bank, despite no provocation motive there.

> If the Palestinians had been serious about a peaceful win-win solution we wouldn't be here.

If the Israeli government had been serious about democracy and had any acceptance of peaceful coexistence, they wouldn't be occupying these territories in the first place, and oppressing and refusing to extend citizenship rights to the people inside them.

You can invent your own version of what the Israeli government wants, and it sounds nice. But Netanyahu has been clear: his life's work has been to prevent any chance of a two-state solution ever being reached. Smotrich and Ben-Gvir are even more extreme, and have been quite clear that their goal is to get rid of what they consider sub-humans living in these territories. Herzog has been clear that he considers that the people of Gaza are collectively responsible for the October 7th attack, making the razing of Gaza at least a clear case of collective punishment. Members of the Knesset have been much more virulent. What the heads of colonist movement say goes even further beyond that.

This version of the world in which any major Israeli political force has any intention whatsoever of peaceful coexistence with the Palestinian people is completely fictitious, and not supported by any public statements any of them make.

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