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IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

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Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#161

US immigration is completely broken. I went to college and graduated in the US on a J1 visa, I paid my fees and when I worked I paid my federal, state taxes + my social security contributions. After graduation I left the US as obviously it makes sense to take my money, teach me skills and then tell me to leave? Why are graduates not being allowed to stay ? I want to move to the US, pay taxes and generally be a good c…

9/11 was great for American workers. For a few years.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#162
post #76

As a recent STEM graduate (Masters in CS), what irks me is the relentless focus on job experience. I don't even get interviews for jobs requiring a high school/GED equivalence + 3 years of experience. There seems to be little faith in our STEM programs among tech recruiters/companies.

I don't think it is lack of faith, just the fact that college was never meant to be vocational training in the first place. While it is an amazing achievement for you, I'm sure, it doesn't mean much to the rest of us. Additionally, it is so easy to gain experience in this industry, just take a month or two to publish your own application and watch the job offers start rolling in, I would imagine these companies consi…

I definitely agree. It just seems that if these companies and recruiters were really that desperate they would consider a Master's in CS as even a second-tier substitute, or at least someone who could ramp up quickly.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#163
The alternative is massively shipping jobs out to India, and be clear, jobs once moved out are not coming back. H1Bs stay back in the country and spend a portion of their income in the country, thus helping local economy. IBM already employs more than a third of their work force in India, so does accenture, oracle etc. The fact is capital is free to move in search of cheap labor; if labor is not accorded the same flexibility, regional imbalances will soon surface wreaking the local economy. Just like what happened when manufacturing shifted to China.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#164
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> But my personal anecdotal experience The plural of anecdote is not data.

it is information

sure...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence The expression anecdotal evidence refers to evidence from anecdotes. Because of the small sample, there is a larger chance that it may be unreliable due to cherry-picked or otherwise non-representative samples of typical cases.[1][2] Anecdotal evidence is considered dubious support of a claim; it is accepted only in lieu of more solid evidence. This is true regardless of the veracity of individual claims.[3][4][5]

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guys, consider the source, really... it's one of those rightwing 'newspeak' organizations http://americasvoiceonline.org/research/background_briefing_... Secondly, though L1 visas do not have a prevailing wage, they DO look at the wage and if it's much lower the L1 visa is NOT granted. Also note that L1 visas are ONLY granted to people who have already worked with the company for several years and need to have been i…

I had to look this up, so I thought I would share for anyone else who was confused - the points in this case refer to Social Security's eligibility system. http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/10072.html

Thanks so much, I could not find this and was too lazy to pull my old files from the basement.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it is lack of faith, just the fact that college was never meant to be vocational training in the first place. While it is an amazing achievement for you, I'm sure, it doesn't mean much to the rest of us. Additionally, it is so easy to gain experience in this industry, just take a month or two to publish your own application and watch the job offers start rolling in, I would imagine these companies consi…

I definitely agree. It just seems that if these companies and recruiters were really that desperate they would consider a Master's in CS as even a second-tier substitute, or at least someone who could ramp up quickly.

I feel the reality is that there really is not a shortage of programmers in general, just a shortage of programmers who have extensive experience in technology X, Y, or Z that is presently in demand. If a company has to fall back on "second-teir" talent, I expect the pool is vast and the competition is stiff. I'm not sure where to find data to back that up, unfortunately, but the anecdotes I see do support it.

My bet is that even if, say, you spent many years writing Ruby on Rails applications and you are the best there is at it, you still wouldn't get a call back for a job writing telephone systems in Erlang, even if you have enough experience and ability to quickly get up to speed to do the job well.

This seems like also a good explanation for the sharp decline in over-35 programmers. The technologies they grew up on are no longer in fashion, so they are, in general, relegated back to lower-teir talent pools and have to struggle to find work along with everyone else.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#167
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just described H1B transfers.

No I did not. H1B transfers require the new employer to go through a significant amount of paperwork, and have all of the usual lags that anything to do with the government does. As a result the requirement to deal with this is a significant impediment for changing jobs. Particularly for very small employers that may not have people dedicated for this kind of paperwork. What I'm describing is, "Oh, you're in the coun…

I've been through an H1-B transfer myself, the lawyers didn't seem to think it was a big deal. From application to acceptance I don't think it was even a week.

I think if your idea was implemented there would be little change in H1-B mobility. Fact is, a foreign worker just has fewer options in the host country for lots of reasons and paperwork is the least of it. The foreign worker probably has no professional reputation outside their own company. Their degree and experience may not be understood or respected. Worst thing is that you're not allowed to have any significant period of unemployment - and even in the cases where you can, family and friends unlikely to be able to help you through a rough situation.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, I'm talking about immigration generally, not just H1-B. Second, you seem to be conflating the term "obligation" with "burden." I'm not saying that H1-B's are somehow particularly a drain on public resources or they benefit from common public expenditures in some special way that citizens don't. That's not what "obligation" means. You point out that you "paid for everything just like every other legal resident/…

But the society doesn't extend the same obligations or benefits. Non permanent residents and citizens are treated as second class citizens both in their financial prospects (paying the same taxes, not receiving the same benefits in SS, Medicare/aid, unemployment benefits, and especially federal financial aid among many others). Many immigrants never receive these benefits because they are forced out before they are e…

That's an argument for more strict immigration, not less. We shouldn't let in anyone we're not willing to extend all the benefits of citizenship to.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#169
post #59
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's obviously a populist move; making life complicated to skilled workers is perhaps the worst way to fight illegal migration. I've been to the UK last year for friends wedding; obtaining even a visitor visa was a humiliating process only a cavity search short from prison experience. So many people in EU/EEC somehow hold this idea that getting residence in their country is as easy as simply applying for it: probably…

I'm from the UK, and despite having interests in government I paid little attention to our immigration process until I started to look into that of the USA. The problem is simple to sum up: highly skilled workers aren't going to sneak across the Channel Tunnel/Rio Grande very often. They'll stick to as-legal-as-possible means because generally they're respectable tradesmen, who've invested a lot of time/money in thei…

You basically summarized the entire immigration debate in one post. Well done.

I think it should be required for anyone arguing immigration policy from either position to go through an immigration system first. When you experience the hoops you need to go through to get into a country you begin to understand why making it harder only negatively impacts the people your country wants.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#170
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just described H1B transfers.

No I did not. H1B transfers require the new employer to go through a significant amount of paperwork, and have all of the usual lags that anything to do with the government does. As a result the requirement to deal with this is a significant impediment for changing jobs. Particularly for very small employers that may not have people dedicated for this kind of paperwork. What I'm describing is, "Oh, you're in the coun…

I've been through 2 H1-B transfers, and my experience is similar to neilk's. Last time it took a record time of 2 weeks between offer acceptance and starting work for new employer.

I must be doing something wrong, do you have a quick help-to guide to make this significantly challenging, the way you're describing?

You're right though on the small employers, but that's why labor immigration lawyers exist, any type of legal activity (divorces, class actions) also involves complicated paperwork, and people who will happily take care of it for a fee.

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