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Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

theguardian.com

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Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#441

Post by JumpCrisscross »

Modified3019 wrote: post #152
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It gets less interesting when one notices that social animals are much more prone to depression. Inflammation and depression are linked. Infection causes inflammation. It doesn’t follow that depression is caused by infection.

I’m not quite following the previous conversation here, but your comment brings to mind that one theory of a possible “function” of depression, is as a “sickness behavior” to help isolate a sick animal from others to protect the group. A sheep or cow getting sick and going off on its own is a common thing. I’m not sure if it has a technical name or if it’s been rigorously studied, but it’s a common observation which…

> but your comment brings to mind that one theory of a possible “function” of depression, is as a “sickness behavior” to help isolate a sick animal from others to protect the group. A sheep or cow getting sick and going off on its own is a common thing

It's one explanation of the phenomenon. I'm not remotely convinced by it, but that doesn't mean I think it's untrue.

What I do think we can conclude is that we have no evidence depression is caused by infection. (Singularly and universally, as OP implies.) With higher confidence I believe I can conclude that interrogating chatbots designed to keep your attention is a poor way to resolve this.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#442

Post by JumpCrisscross »

DANmode wrote: post #320
DANmode wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, “linked to” is better than “caused by” here, for sure. Not often this kind of thing comes up on HN, so I was replying in haste at a stoplight! I’ll ignore the slight, which you should know better than.

Stopping back in, because I unironically came across someone's almost-surely AI assisted summary that does a better job than I have summarizing the processes being discussed: == === Why the Sick Get Sicker Most people think illness progresses because of pathogens, toxins, or genetics — but the deeper truth is that tension, stress, and breathing patterns control the trajectory of health more than anything else. When t…

Please don't do this.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#443

Post by nitwit005 »

pixelready wrote: post #14
carsoon wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with suicidal depression is that if someone has created the thought pattern that death is best, then removing the symptoms of depression (lethargy, lack of energy, no willpower) now gives the person the ability to actually follow through with the act. Medications almost always target symptoms and never address root causes.

Finding everyone’s cow is expensive and time consuming: https://antidepressantcow.org/2020/02/the-story-of-the-antid... But is the only true cure to the suffering. We’d have to undergo a massive reorganization of society (and upset a few hefty profit margins) to prioritize that, so we settle for the messy symptom management we have.

Part of the diagnosis procedure for major depressive disorder is ruling out physical conditions that can cause similar symptoms. No one is going to miss that the guy had his leg blown off.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#444

Post by throwuxiytayq »

brooke2k wrote: post #435
conartist6 wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what freaks me out about these drugs. You-on-the-pill becomes you, and you can't ever stop.

well when the you-off-the-pill wants to kill yourself, becoming you-on-the-pill is a pretty rad thing

Such a simple concept, and for some reason so difficult to grasp for certain people. Usually the ones not coming across as particularly empathetic or open-minded.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#445

Post by phatskat »

ckw wrote: post #276
BjoernKW wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every medication can have severe and permanent side effects SSRIs are by an order of a magnitude worse than any other common medication in that respect. Moreover, like I said there's little evidence these drugs actually achieve any quality-of-life improvement beyond a placebo effect.

SSRIs are very bad, but antipsychotics are worse. There are many other reasons, but a demonstrative one is that there is a cumulative annual risk as high as 7% of developing a permanent movement disorder when on them.

TD is no joke!

It was really hard for my ex to have to choose between anti-psychs and the potential side effects, or exceedingly strong paranoia with incredibly lucid hallucinations - I did not envy her position

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#446

Post by ivell »

ckw wrote: post #312
robertakarobin wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I, like every other person who hasn't been living under a rock, am abundantly aware of corruption in Big Pharma and medicine. If my mother and I have both taken a given well-known medication for decades and found it effectively treated a condition that may be hereditary with no negative side effects, and my son is demonstrating symptoms similar to mine and my mother's, is it unreasonable to tolerate my son trying the…

My deepest views on this subject are personal, subjective, and more controversial. I have watched several family members take antidepressants for upwards of four decades, and I myself suffered terrible depression throughout my childhood and teenage years. Despite my depression, I always avoided antidepressants for some ineffable reason-- a hunch, a nebulous suspicion, I'm not sure what to call it. Somewhere in my mid…

> palatable that which otherwise wouldn't be

Medication does not remove the need for therapy. If they are stuck in a bad situation and do not have the tools to come out of it, then in therapy they can learn about the tools and techniques.

Medication avoids having that particular day where everything hits rock bottom and the only solution seems to be suicide.

For some people just therapy is not sufficient but need also medication.

Psychiatric illness is something where many people have misunderstandings. Since many people go through depressive episodes, they feel that their experience is the same as others who are facing chronic depression. And since it is not physically visible, it is also hard to empathize with.

No one says you can come out of heart disease or diabetes by just bearing it bravely. Somehow for psychiatric illness people assume that it is something that can be braved out.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#447

Post by aleph_minus_one »

pizzafeelsright wrote: post #230
robertakarobin wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, us too. Beats us. Sure wasn't around our house, and we can't imagine any family/friends/TV/whatever he may have learned it from.

[flagged]

> Depression is caused by laziness and anxiety by hopelessness.

While pizzafeelsright gets heavily downvoted, I think their may be some (dark) truth behind it: if you weren't lazy, you would sommit suicide instead of living a depressed life. :-(

I also have a feeling that there might be another (dark) truth behind the link between anxiety and hopelessness.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#448

Post by tflol »

robertakarobin wrote: post #394
tflol wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is horrifying. I agree with this. I've learned a lot through life, one thing I've learned is about detrimental long term physical and even social effects of antidepressants, and other medications like adderal. Both I used to take. At this point in my life, if I realized my parents gave me an antidepressant prescription when I was SEVEN years old because I said something stupid WHEN I WAS SEVEN I'd be very dist…

My kids go to a ordinary public school. They are very bright, cautious, and thoughtful, and generally pretty happy and upbeat. There is a strong correlation between academic intelligence and mental illness. Being depressed to the point of being suicidal and having a sunny disposition are not mutually exclusive at all. I absolutely agree that it would be disturbing and disappointing for a child to be medicated because…

> My kids go to a ordinary public school. They are very bright, cautious, and thoughtful, and generally pretty happy and upbeat. There is a strong correlation between academic intelligence and mental illness. Being depressed to the point of being suicidal and having a sunny disposition are not mutually exclusive at all.

If my parents said this to me the moment I realized what I was on and that I had to deal with coming off of it late in life I would be beside myself.

I'd probably also look up the doctor that encouraged my parents to put their seven year old on SSRIs so I could warn friends.

These huge lists of side effects are haunting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_serotonin_reuptake_i... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoxetine

If my parents were like "uh well I had virtually no symptoms" I'd lose my mind!

Life sucks, I'm depressed all the time, kids are depressed all the time. There's material everywhere explaining a decline in general mental health. I'm happy and lucky that when my parents (or the one that was paying attention, who was certainly also depressed) noticed I was depressed or sad during a few events, some long lasting, they asked me about it, listened to me, and did their best to give me advice instead of giving up when I was seven and giving me drugs.

Remember when replying, this post has all been about myself, a victim of depression.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#449

Post by BjoernKW »

ponorin wrote: post #355
BjoernKW wrote: post #232

[flagged]

Fluoxetine is one of two medicines listed in WHO Model List of Essential Medicines for the treatment of depression since 2007 (use of other SSRIs are also allowed)[1]. The listing means it has proven to be safe and effective enough that WHO believes it should be readily available in every healthcare system . You will need much more than a Wikipedia article listing side effects for the entire drug class, without incid…

The WHO hardly is a reliable, neutral source. It's a political organization that's subject to all sorts of outside influences.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#450

Post by victorbjorklund »

jacobgkau wrote: post #144
robertakarobin wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We had/have a lot of reservations about it too, and discussed it at length with our pediatrician over months of observation. We decided what was more horrifying was hearing a 7-year-old — who has supportive family and friends, good health, no traumatic events, no major life changes going on, never worries where food/shelter is coming from — say he feels like "he shouldn't be on Earth anymore" and suddenly react with…

I'd be more interested in where your 7-year-old even learned phrases like "I feel like I shouldn't be on Earth anymore."

Not sure about you but I didn’t learn my native language phrase by phrase only. You learn the individual parts and concepts and construct sentences from that.
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