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Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

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Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#41

Post by piva00 »

rvnx wrote: post #15
HappyPanacea wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is gained from allowing such bias?

Situation: Men are clicking on job of mechanics, more than women. Consequence: men are now more likely shown mechanics job. What is gained: more accurate content, more interesting content, more engagement. As a result: men are more likely to be shown jobs interesting for men, and women are more likely to be shown jobs interesting for women. Which means: Increased chances to find a matching job, and to save time doing…

It also means perpetuating the bias, more men will then apply for the job while maybe some women that could get interested didn't get it shown, reinforcing the already existing issue.

Why do we want to perpetuate biases without a chance to allow it to potentially be corrected?

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#42

Post by standardUser »

seneca wrote: post #39
standardUser wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be suggesting that companies should be allowed to trick us so long as there is some conceivable amount of work we can do individually to uncover the trick. But because society exists for people and not companies, most of us prefer laws that stop companies from tricking us in the first place.

Advertising or not advertising jobs to people is not "tricking" them. This is a childish argument.

The Netherlands Institute for Human Rights thinks it makes perfect sense. RTFA

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#43

Post by inglor_cz »

standardUser wrote: post #14
inglor_cz wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are the anti-discrimination laws based on anything else than feelings of their proponents with regard to what is wrong and what is right? If this sort of discrimination was economically ineffective, you would see the market itself slowly adjusting towards a more efficient equilibrium, even without explicit laws.

Anti-discrimination laws exist because of the exceptionally well-documented tendency of people in positions of power to judge people based on their gender, sexuality, creed or the color of their skin.

I don't doubt that there are people who operate on a "well, I am a Muslim so I want Muslim employees" scheme or similar ones (woman, black, young), but I do believe that this should be covered by freedom of association.

I do understand that you think otherwise, I have met many people who see things differently.

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#44

Post by billy99k »

hydrogen7800 wrote: post #19
cm2012 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The algorithm is responding to people's revealed preferences in what job ads they want to see

All discrimination can be described as "revealed preference". A very convenient way of ignoring systemic harm.

If a company gets 0% response from a certain group, why should they have to pay for ads, when the likelihood they will find a candidate is next to nothing?

This also only ever goes in one direction. A friend of mine works for a company run by and employs 100% women.

In any other context, it would be illegal. Instead, it's considered 'diverse' and 'empowering'.

Based on statistics alone, it's obvious the company is hiring women based on choice.

Tech companies, like Duo, touted the fact that they had all women development teams a few years back. When discrimination like this is an accepted practice, I stop listening.

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#45

Post by standardUser »

fastball wrote: post #32
standardUser wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think anyone is meaningfully harmed by being algorithmically shown job ads stereotypical of one gender rather than another If you show me a lower paying girl job instead of a higher paying boy job, and I apply for and get the girl job, how is the company tricking me into applying for the lower paying job based on my gender not a problem to you? How was I not harmed by having a better opportunity hidden from…

You are not owed either job. Getting a high-paying "boy job" is your own responsibility if you want one.

Who said anyone was owed a job? The problem is that hiding listings from people based on their gender obviously impacts who gets what jobs.

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#46

Post by piva00 »

personomas wrote: post #17
JuniperMesos wrote: post #3

> The Netherlands Institute for Human Rights said in a February 18 decision that Facebook’s algorithm reinforced gender stereotypes by mainly showing “typically female professions” to female Facebook users in the Netherlands and that Meta (META), the social platform’s owner, should have monitored and adjusted its algorithm to prevent that. > For example, ads for mechanic positions were predominantly shown to men, whi…

Totally agree. EU and Europe is going insane with crazy ass laws to punish american companies and regulate everything to death, while they allow their states get away with becoming totalitarian. #unreal

I invite you to stop the screeching speech, it's self-defeating and usually the sign of a mind incapable of nuance.

Learn nuance, it's going to help you in life...

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#47

Post by tbossanova »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #29
JuniperMesos wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's to be gained by making it illegal under French law?

Advertising will simultaneously become a lot more expensive and less effective. The ability of job seekers to find jobs they're willing to apply to will go down. Are those not goals of yours?

Ads being more expensive and less effective sounds great to me

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#48

Post by rvnx »

troupo wrote: post #27
rvnx wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Situation: Men are clicking on job of mechanics, more than women. Consequence: men are now more likely shown mechanics job. What is gained: more accurate content, more interesting content, more engagement. As a result: men are more likely to be shown jobs interesting for men, and women are more likely to be shown jobs interesting for women. Which means: Increased chances to find a matching job, and to save time doing…

Nope. What you eventually get is women not getting a variety of jobs they could apply to and a death of men in professions that actually need more men (e.g. nurses, teachers etc.) We already been through this. It's not ancient history

Keep in mind that these advertising algorithms are never 100% pushing jobs catered for a specific group, they keep a % of exploration.

https://www.tutorialspoint.com/machine_learning/machine_lear...

This is exploration vs exploitation dilemma. For example let's say that 10% of ads are thrown randomly, and from these random rolls these patterns are discovered:

> [Denver+ years+men]: mechanics +10%

> [Denver+ years+men]: nurse -5%

Then the system can apply these coefficients on 90% of the other traffic.

If you are making 100% exploration (so 100% random), then it means the people are going to miss their relevant job opportunity (having a net negative impact on the society).

Increasing exploration is a solution that would legally actually reduce biases of previouses patterns, but at the cost of less relevant content.

In all cases, if the bias is real, exploration discovers them and the coefficients already naturally adjust.

One exception, advertisers can artificially restrict saying "I want only men between 30-40" in their targeting filters.

Then what Meta can do ? Not much.

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#49

Post by inglor_cz »

onraglanroad wrote: post #16
inglor_cz wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are the anti-discrimination laws based on anything else than feelings of their proponents with regard to what is wrong and what is right? If this sort of discrimination was economically ineffective, you would see the market itself slowly adjusting towards a more efficient equilibrium, even without explicit laws.

They're based on the notion that gender discrimination is outdated. It's certainly a particular ideology but I think it's a worthwhile one. I don't judge things by economic effectiveness; slavery was economically effective at one time but it was still wrong.

"I don't judge things by economic effectiveness;"

Fair enough. I have seen attempts to justify anti-discrimination laws by very shaky economic research too often.

A moral stand is, as you say, independent of the economic ramifications, but as far as "outdated" things go, they may come back to fashion again. Given the current wild political swings between the left and the right, I wouldn't be surprised if at least some Western countries abolished or watered down their anti-discrimination statutes in the next decade or so.

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#50

Post by mustyoshi »

wiseowise wrote: post #33
cm2012 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The algorithm is responding to people's revealed preferences in what job ads they want to see

How far are you willing to stretch this? What about skin color? Nationality? Religion?

Not the guy you're responding to but I'm not going to willingly pay money for pork rind ads to be shown to Muslims. In fact I'd go so far as to suggest that should be illegal as a hate crime.
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