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End of Japanese community

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Re: End of Japanese community

#131

Post by o11c »

stonogo wrote: post #43
thwarted wrote: post #21

What is the logic behind adding machine translation for content that already had a seemingly robust, enthusiastic, and motivated (volunteer?) community maintaining the translations? The "saves money" rationale to deploy LLM/MT automation doesn't make sense when its volunteers are contributing because they want to. This is kind of community and participation destruction wrought by the introduction of LLMs/MT has a ser…

Mozilla has invested heavily in this technology, and whatever project manager is running it needs more checkboxes in the results column of their next request for a raise. In other words, "business alignment."

In particular, "the content is useful" is not a checkbox. "The content is produced by this technology" is, and overwriting hand-curated content is an obvious action.

Re: End of Japanese community

#132

Post by im3w1l »

jahsome wrote: post #10

I'm not really able to understand the finer details but I think I picked up enough to get the broad strokes. Really though, all I needed to see was the phrase "jump on a quick call" to form an irrationally strong opinion. That phrase instantly warms my entire body with rage.

I think a phone call can be better for resolving a conflict because it allows a more rapid back and forth, you can adapt in real time to how the other person is responding. If someone gets upset about some word choice like here, you can quickly say "I'm sorry I didn't mean it like that" and get back to the actual topic over how the work should be organized instead of some superficial detail.

In the end it may boil down to some strong hatred for AI, this seems to be very common recently and "I prohibit to use all my translation as learning data for SUMO bot and AIs" certainly points that way. If that is the root cause then it may be impossible to resolve to the satisfaction of both sides.

Re: End of Japanese community

#133

Post by Groxx »

Waterluvian wrote: post #71
jahsome wrote: post #10

I'm not really able to understand the finer details but I think I picked up enough to get the broad strokes. Really though, all I needed to see was the phrase "jump on a quick call" to form an irrationally strong opinion. That phrase instantly warms my entire body with rage.

I’m not sure those who speak like that are equipped to understand how offensive their words and tone can be. It suggests a decision can be reversed with a quick call, which questions one’s choices or conviction. As if to suggest the choice was made without considerable thought and care. It’s such an unserious tone to a moment that’s very serious to the other.

I think it's because it's almost never accompanied by "we may have fucked up, please help us understand how to fix it now and in the future".

It's almost always (like this time) "I'm sorry you feel that way, please spend more of your free time", and sometimes (like this time) "[we're doing it anyway but maybe we'll make some changes]".

It feels insulting because it is insulting. The decision has been made, they just want to not feel bad about you being insulted.

Re: End of Japanese community

#134

Post by [deleted] »

crazygringo wrote: post #98
hattmall wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But he fairly in depth described the problem and his reasoning for why it is a problem. There's nothing really to "jump on a quick call" about without actually first addressing the issues. Plus it just sounds, for lack of a better term, retarded. First off, in comparison to basically any other communication, calls aren't quick. Much less the one that you have to schedule around time zones. Calls require focused atten…

> But he fairly in depth described the problem and his reasoning for why it is a problem. There's nothing really to "jump on a quick call" about without actually first addressing the issues. No, he didn't. I'll repeat a comment I made elsewhere: The problems are nowhere near actionable. A lot more information is needed. E.g. literally the first bullet: "It doesn't follow our translation guidelines". OK -- where are t…

[deleted]

Re: End of Japanese community

#135

Post by petre »

Incipient wrote: post #28
benatkin wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They said sorry for how you feel about it which is insincere and unhelpful.

My partner has been picking me up on the specifics of wording. Is there a slightly different phrasing that would make this better, or is it the sentiment that's crap? "I'm sorry for how these changes impacted you"? Personally just the sentiment feels insincere to me haha.

The response was likely also written by AI so there is no point analyzing it. It just ads insult to injury.

Re: End of Japanese community

#136

Post by ForgetItJake »

thwarted wrote: post #21

What is the logic behind adding machine translation for content that already had a seemingly robust, enthusiastic, and motivated (volunteer?) community maintaining the translations? The "saves money" rationale to deploy LLM/MT automation doesn't make sense when its volunteers are contributing because they want to. This is kind of community and participation destruction wrought by the introduction of LLMs/MT has a ser…

Mozilla is desperately trying to LARP as a tech giant.

Re: End of Japanese community

#137

Post by yawnxyz »

jacquesm wrote: post #77

> I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. Would you be interested to hop on a call with us to talk about this further? We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with. Talk about being tone deaf. This was so incredibly rude. No consult, no request whether they wanted this or not. Mozilla keeps finding new ways to shoot itself…

sounds like it's almost an AI response? I can't believe a person responds that way

Re: End of Japanese community

#138

Post by o11c »

gpm wrote: post #105
sakompella wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is not how CC / FOSS licenses work. if this is how FOSS worked not a soul would use it

I don't think it's at all clear that some foss licenses (MIT for instance) are irrevocable. Not in the US, and certainly not in any possible relevant country... It's not clear that they are revocable either. As I understand the law it at least in part rests on the question of whether there was consideration in exchange for the license, which might even make it a case by case analysis. CC licenses (and some other foss…

Whether the license is revokable or not is irrelevant when the action isn't permitted by the license anyway.

In particular, the primary purpose of AI as we know it is to strip off attribution, which is explicitly forbidden by basically every license in existence.

Re: End of Japanese community

#139

Post by danielscrubs »

sitharus wrote: post #68
pseudalopex wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It sounds like Mozilla just turned on the machine without consulting the human translators to see if the machine actually worked in a useful manner. Yes. And someone should make a real apology. But learning what the machine did wrong is part of fixing a machine.

Yes, that's why you engage with the people doing the work first and run it on a staging environment to see what would be overwritten. You test until it's working well enough to enhance the effort done by the translators.

Well, in this era Im not entirely sure the quality aspect is even considered. CEO wants AI? Then he will get it, so that the next earnings call can be bombastic!

Saving zero dollars and making the product worse is not important, only that there doesn’t seem to be a browser monopoly is.

Re: End of Japanese community

#140

Post by Daub »

chao- wrote: post #26
jahsome wrote: post #10

I'm not really able to understand the finer details but I think I picked up enough to get the broad strokes. Really though, all I needed to see was the phrase "jump on a quick call" to form an irrationally strong opinion. That phrase instantly warms my entire body with rage.

I am fascinated by the nuanced opinions people have about word choice. What phrase would you use to ask someone to discuss a matter, but which you feel would be more appropriate for this kind of situation?

'I'm sorry for how you feel' is in the same class as 'I'm sorry if my words hurt you'. They are both classes of non-apologies.

'I'm sorry that our actions caused such distress' come a bit closer to being a true apology.

Importantly, 'if' was changed to 'that'.

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