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End of Japanese community

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Re: End of Japanese community

#91

Post by joegibbs »

gyomu wrote: post #18

As a multilingual/multicultural human it’s been pretty weird witnessing what AI translation has been doing to regional languages & cultures on the internet in the last few years. Sure we had machine translation before, but it was still a little off. Now the latest language models get us 99.9% there, so they are judged good enough to deploy at scale. What results is a weird twilight zone where everything is in your la…

How do the models do if you ask them to translate to X language and adapt the text to suit cultural norms and idioms?

Re: End of Japanese community

#92

Post by jacquesm »

hattmall wrote: post #83
crazygringo wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? It seems like someone who has no awareness of the problem, who wants to learn more about the problem, and the fastest way for both parties is over the phone ASAP rather than through a bunch of emails. When software goes wrong, you need as much information as possible to figure it how to fix it.

But he fairly in depth described the problem and his reasoning for why it is a problem. There's nothing really to "jump on a quick call" about without actually first addressing the issues. Plus it just sounds, for lack of a better term, retarded. First off, in comparison to basically any other communication, calls aren't quick. Much less the one that you have to schedule around time zones. Calls require focused atten…

Quite. "We may have made a mistake, would you be open to discuss this with us either through email or a call at your preference?" would work a lot better in this setting.

Re: End of Japanese community

#93

Post by [deleted] »

ezoe wrote: post #66

When the machine automation quality became okay enough, this conflict of interest happens. His demand of not using his existing work for AI training is nonsense. Because the entire article is stated: > Portions of this content are ©1998–2025 by individual mozilla.org contributors. Content available under a Creative Commons license. Didn't he agree on that? So, this contributor revealed he doesn't understand the licen…

[deleted]

Re: End of Japanese community

#94

Post by [deleted] »

adeptima wrote: post #7

10+ years in Japan. The message here is much deeper from my perspective. “Let’s jump on the call” is not the solution. The guy was stripped off of his face. I love Japan for being human. Small business bar or restaurant with 3 tables. Not everything should be streamlined for a quick call solution… the process was pushed on his head. Google nemawashi decision making process

[deleted]

Re: End of Japanese community

#95

Post by pseudalopex »

sitharus wrote: post #68
pseudalopex wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It sounds like Mozilla just turned on the machine without consulting the human translators to see if the machine actually worked in a useful manner. Yes. And someone should make a real apology. But learning what the machine did wrong is part of fixing a machine.

Yes, that's why you engage with the people doing the work first and run it on a staging environment to see what would be overwritten. You test until it's working well enough to enhance the effort done by the translators.

And someone should make a real apology. Which I said.

Re: End of Japanese community

#96

Post by krick »

jogu wrote: post #65
crazygringo wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are a huge number of assumptions you're making, absolutely none of which are in the post. Generally speaking, orgs aren't trying to replace high-quality human translations with lower-quality machine translations. They are often trying to put machine translations in where there are no translations, though. Getting the balance right requires fine-tuning. And fine-tuning requires a quick call to start to better un…

Hence why I said "from my read". This is how I view the situation, and why the lead is reacting the way they are. > They are often trying to put machine translations in where there are no translations, though. And at what point are all of the translations done by machines and the work the community is doing no longer needed? At the very least, the nature of their work will change and I think they're not interested in…

(Unlike GP) I don't actually have a problem with your assumptions. They seem likely to me. But I still have a problem with the whole sentiment of, uh, people on your side of the discussion.

Let's just assume it is how you say it is. (The only assumption I am not willing to make is that people at Mozilla are already convinced it was a bad idea after all.) What in your opinion would be the right move now, after they rolled this bullshit auto-translator out and pissed off a lot of people in the community, including a major contributor for the last 20 years? Surely they could just ignore him and go on with this auto-translation initiative (BTW, thay don't even have to worry about whatever he wants to "prohibit" to do with his translations, because he waived off his rights by posting them). Would it be better than trying to set up a call and discuss things, try to find some compromise, gather a number of recommendations she may then pass onto people working on the auto-translator initiative (because surely this Kiki person, whoever she is, is not the sole person responsible for this and cannot magically just fix the situation)?

Re: End of Japanese community

#97

Post by sakompella »

panny wrote: post #76
ezoe wrote: post #66

When the machine automation quality became okay enough, this conflict of interest happens. His demand of not using his existing work for AI training is nonsense. Because the entire article is stated: > Portions of this content are ©1998–2025 by individual mozilla.org contributors. Content available under a Creative Commons license. Didn't he agree on that? So, this contributor revealed he doesn't understand the licen…

You can rescind a license. If you own a property, it is yours. Even if you licensed it to someone, you own it and you can kick someone off. They can later address you for a breach of license, but it's still your property. You own it. If mozilla wants to tell him that his work was valuable and therefore has grounds to sue him for rescinding the license, they will have a lot of difficulty proving that after their sumob…

this is not how CC / FOSS licenses work. if this is how FOSS worked not a soul would use it

Re: End of Japanese community

#98

Post by crazygringo »

hattmall wrote: post #83
crazygringo wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? It seems like someone who has no awareness of the problem, who wants to learn more about the problem, and the fastest way for both parties is over the phone ASAP rather than through a bunch of emails. When software goes wrong, you need as much information as possible to figure it how to fix it.

But he fairly in depth described the problem and his reasoning for why it is a problem. There's nothing really to "jump on a quick call" about without actually first addressing the issues. Plus it just sounds, for lack of a better term, retarded. First off, in comparison to basically any other communication, calls aren't quick. Much less the one that you have to schedule around time zones. Calls require focused atten…

> But he fairly in depth described the problem and his reasoning for why it is a problem. There's nothing really to "jump on a quick call" about without actually first addressing the issues.

No, he didn't. I'll repeat a comment I made elsewhere:

The problems are nowhere near actionable. A lot more information is needed. E.g. literally the first bullet: "It doesn't follow our translation guidelines". OK -- where are those guidelines? Is there a way to get it to follow them, like another commenter says works? Does the person need help following the process for that? Or is there a bug? Etc.

These are the things a call can clarify. It's the necessary first step, so why are people complaining?

> Calls require focused attention which if you are used to multi-tasking are a huge drain.

Solving important problems requires focused attention. Which is why you get on calls to solve them when they're urgent and important, and not something that can be multitasked.

Re: End of Japanese community

#99

Post by pnathan »

ezoe wrote: post #86
panny wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can rescind a license. If you own a property, it is yours. Even if you licensed it to someone, you own it and you can kick someone off. They can later address you for a breach of license, but it's still your property. You own it. If mozilla wants to tell him that his work was valuable and therefore has grounds to sue him for rescinding the license, they will have a lot of difficulty proving that after their sumob…

Once your work is published under Creative Commons license, it is irreversible. No matter you have a copyright or not. You can't undo it the fact at one point you published your work in one of Creative Commons license(there are multiple incompatible Creative Commons licenses so it's bit complicated). You can make updated version of your work to non-CC, but the version you published under CC is CC.

I would be curious if that is how Japanese courts would view it. They may not consider that a valid way. Or they might. But different jurisdictions vary.

Re: End of Japanese community

#100

Post by jack1243star »

krick wrote: post #72
ekianjo wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nemawashi Long time in Japan too, I would not consider newamashi as being Japan's strengths.

I can imagine what you mean, but since I am not in Japan, it would be interesting why you feel that way.

Not OP but the phrase in Japanese also carries a negative connotation, that important issues are decided by a shadow process hidden below the surface, beforehand by those in the loop. Meetings are just for show.
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