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Why AC is cheap, but AC repair is a luxury

a16z.substack.com

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Re: Why AC is cheap, but AC repair is a luxury

#131

Post by nunez »

dig1 wrote: post #94
testdelacc1 wrote: post #52

The author makes an error while explaining Jevons’ Paradox. They say “the cheaper and faster we got at producing coal, the more coal we ended up using”. But that’s not paradoxical at all. That’s basic supply and demand curve from economics 101. It’s exactly what you’d expect. Whereas if you take the extraordinarily difficult step of opening Wikipedia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox ), you understand th…

a16z is heavily long on AI, so this article sounds very biased. From the article: If you live in the United States today, and you accidentally knock a hole in your wall, it’s probably cheaper to buy a flatscreen TV and stick it in front of the hole, compared to hiring a handyman to fix your drywall. Probably because the US has been focused on services for years rather than physical goods production. Everything else i…

> From the article: If you live in the United States today, and you accidentally knock a hole in your wall, it’s probably cheaper to buy a flatscreen TV and stick it in front of the hole, compared to hiring a handyman to fix your drywall.

This also isn't true?

It costs almost nothing to patch drywall. You can also do this yourself. Unless the point they're making is "TVs are so cheap, you can mount a TV inside of the drywall for less money than it would cost to fix," which also isn't true.

Re: Why AC is cheap, but AC repair is a luxury

#132

Post by esperent »

kilotaras wrote: post #118
esperent wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in Vietnam nearly all ACs are these minisplit type. It costs about 500,000VND ($19) to get one serviced, including replacement coolant. It's cheap enough that I get it done at least once or twice a year for all units (the coolant doesn't always need replacing but I get it cleaned and serviced). I know the US and Vietnamese economies are very different, but something doesn't add up there.

IIUC grandparent is in Norway as he quoted the price in NOK.

Oh good catch. Somehow my eyes skipped over NOK and just saw the $2.3k.

... Why does someone in Norway need a split AC unit? I don't think they're very efficient for heating.

EDIT: I researched this and it seems the type designed for heating in negative zero temperatures are much more expensive. So maybe that explains it?

Re: Why AC is cheap, but AC repair is a luxury

#133

Post by Gigachad »

kelnos wrote: post #66
Gigachad wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this some country specific terminology? At least in Australia I've never seen an air conditioner that didn't use heat pump technology. Aside from evaporative cooling that is.

Air conditioners (the things that can make a room colder, but not hotter), are indeed heat pumps, but in the US when we refer to a "heat pump" we mean the same technology, but with a reversing valve so that it can make rooms both colder and hotter.

Interesting. I’ve never seen one that couldn’t heat and cool before. Even crusty 30 year old window units can do both. Seems almost absurd to not utilise it both ways.

Re: Why AC is cheap, but AC repair is a luxury

#134

Post by stephen_g »

ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #38
WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Second, you have consumer protection policies that make it genuinely expensive to, say, be a HVAC repairman. clarification: Of the things that make it expensive to run an HVAC repair company, consumer protection related expenses are super far down the list. source: 2 decades (on/off) supporting a close friend's regional hvac biz, national geothermal interests.

A quick Google says it takes 4 years to get a license to be an HVAC technician in my state. I understand large installs at businesses are a different problem, and granted I've only ever installed a mini split, but that was hardly rocket science. And home installs are likely what most people are thinking of here. In Japan you can get minisplit's installed for $1k a unit, here you regularly find quotes over $10k. Somet…

In Australia the going rate last time I got one installed when I was supplying the unit (this was back in 2019) was AU$540 (US$350) for a simple install (exterior wall of house etc.), because electricians just get an extra qualification and there’s a lot of competition.

I bought the 3.5KW unit online for $1080 including delivery (USD$702) so it was $1620 (US$1050) all up. I expect with the recent inflation it might cost more like $2000 (US$1300) installed for one that size and maybe $3500 (US$2275) for a bigger unit (8kW).

The splits themselves are mostly all Japanese brands that we have here (Mitsubishi Electric, Daiken, Panasonic, etc.) as well as some Korean (LG, Samsung), but Chinese ones are starting to appear in the market too. But they all seem very cheap compared to buying one in the US, before the installation there which just seems astronomically expensive to us.

Re: Why AC is cheap, but AC repair is a luxury

#135

Post by esperent »

LtWorf wrote: post #103
esperent wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in Vietnam nearly all ACs are these minisplit type. It costs about 500,000VND ($19) to get one serviced, including replacement coolant. It's cheap enough that I get it done at least once or twice a year for all units (the coolant doesn't always need replacing but I get it cleaned and serviced). I know the US and Vietnamese economies are very different, but something doesn't add up there.

I wonder if they just let super polluting gas free

Almost certainly. Although at least they all use the newer R32 coolant these days. A typical AC unit uses 0.5 to 1kg of R32 coolant, and releasing 1kg is about the same as 1 person taking a 1000km flight (from a quick search). If you replace the coolant every two years it'll pollute much more from the electricity used than the coolant being released.

Re: Why AC is cheap, but AC repair is a luxury

#136

Post by [deleted] »

locknitpicker wrote: post #76
ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A quick Google says it takes 4 years to get a license to be an HVAC technician in my state. I understand large installs at businesses are a different problem, and granted I've only ever installed a mini split, but that was hardly rocket science. And home installs are likely what most people are thinking of here. In Japan you can get minisplit's installed for $1k a unit, here you regularly find quotes over $10k. Somet…

> In Japan you can get minisplit's installed for $1k a unit, here you regularly find quotes over $10k. How much does the unit cost? What work does it take to install it? How large does it need to be to support your home? What are the energy needs of your typical home in Japan vs your home town? Those are the key factors, not how many years someone spends in tradeschool.

[deleted]

Re: Why AC is cheap, but AC repair is a luxury

#137

Post by ceejayoz »

nunez wrote: post #131
dig1 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a16z is heavily long on AI, so this article sounds very biased. From the article: If you live in the United States today, and you accidentally knock a hole in your wall, it’s probably cheaper to buy a flatscreen TV and stick it in front of the hole, compared to hiring a handyman to fix your drywall. Probably because the US has been focused on services for years rather than physical goods production. Everything else i…

> From the article: If you live in the United States today, and you accidentally knock a hole in your wall, it’s probably cheaper to buy a flatscreen TV and stick it in front of the hole, compared to hiring a handyman to fix your drywall. This also isn't true? It costs almost nothing to patch drywall. You can also do this yourself. Unless the point they're making is "TVs are so cheap, you can mount a TV inside of the…

If you have the stuff already.

I had to buy the sanding pole, the joint compound, the putty knife, and the paint the other day. A TV would definitely have been cheaper.

Re: Why AC is cheap, but AC repair is a luxury

#138

Post by roenxi »

locknitpicker wrote: post #64
chemotaxis wrote: post #7

That's a lot of economic theorizing, but to me, it doesn't seem to be substantiated all that well. You can just as well argue that labor is getting more expensive in the West because of two non-market pressures. First, we have a multitude of government programs that seek to eliminate extreme poverty, so there are fewer people who are desperate to take any job for any money. Second, you have consumer protection polici…

> (...) a multitude of government programs that seek to eliminate extreme poverty, (...) consumer protection policies that make it genuinely expensive (...) I don't think this opinion holds a rational basis. Extreme poverty being a factor in low job demand is an argument for coercing people into performing certain tasks even though they are not economically viable just because it benefits you personally. This is not…

> Being required to dispose of air filters in a landfill is not the reason why you can't afford a repair.

It is for someone - the market price is pretty much always going to be around the point where a small increase causes a noticeable drop-off in customers (otherwise the only sensible thing for the seller to do is charge more). If something causes even a relatively small increase in price will mean someone can't afford the thing any more.

Re: Why AC is cheap, but AC repair is a luxury

#139

Post by [deleted] »

dig1 wrote: post #94
testdelacc1 wrote: post #52

The author makes an error while explaining Jevons’ Paradox. They say “the cheaper and faster we got at producing coal, the more coal we ended up using”. But that’s not paradoxical at all. That’s basic supply and demand curve from economics 101. It’s exactly what you’d expect. Whereas if you take the extraordinarily difficult step of opening Wikipedia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox ), you understand th…

a16z is heavily long on AI, so this article sounds very biased. From the article: If you live in the United States today, and you accidentally knock a hole in your wall, it’s probably cheaper to buy a flatscreen TV and stick it in front of the hole, compared to hiring a handyman to fix your drywall. Probably because the US has been focused on services for years rather than physical goods production. Everything else i…

[deleted]

Re: Why AC is cheap, but AC repair is a luxury

#140

Post by locknitpicker »

water9 wrote: post #123
locknitpicker wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I didn't see anything in their comment where they added "and therefore we ought return to rampant extreme poverty", did I miss it? The US is already experiencing rampant extreme poverty. There are people in the US holding multiple jobs and still can't afford to eat, let alone healthcare. Again, this argument that things are expensive because the poor can't work and regulation somehow is suffocating businesses is pu…

Yes, because if you get a leak in your air conditioner, instead of just patching the hole and refilling it with coolant, you have to replace your entire system in places like California because they require a more green, less gas, in the name of science, and still completely ignoring the simple fact that it doesn’t make a damn difference because we all live in the same globe. The amount of waste that is generated is…

> Yes, because if you get a leak in your air conditioner, instead of just patching the hole and refilling it with coolant, you have to replace your entire system in places like California because they require a more green, less gas, in the name of science, and still completely ignoring the simple fact that it doesn’t make a damn difference because we all live in the same globe.

I don't think you are holding an informed opinion. Ozone layer depletion was tied primarily with CFC emissions used in air conditioning units, and since the production of CFCs and other ozone-depleting chemicals were banned in the late 1980s the ozone layer started to regenerate. In practical terms this means lower incidence of health issues such as skin cancer or cataracts. That sounds pretty neat.

But being able to use a 40+ year air conditioning unit is worth it?

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