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Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

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Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#211

Post by lo_zamoyski »

wazdra wrote: post #126
AQuantized wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You really don't want to end up with dementia and related illnesses, it totally sours everyone's view of you. This seems like such an absurd conclusion to this, as though the opinions of other people of you are what matter when you functionally lose your personhood and then die. Maybe a better focus would be that there often isn't a good way for a community to manage a person who suddenly becomes irrational because…

Valuing how others remember you is definitely a motivation in life for many. I respect that it is not your own, respect that it may be mine. It is by no means "absurd".

It is absurd because it places subjective opinions over objective goods. This is the vice of “human respect”. Human beings do not have a final say about others. They can opine, but opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one.

Sure, it is nice to be remembered well, if you deserve it, but I do not live for the opinions of others. This is slave mentality and pathetic. I care about being good, and if I am hated for that, then so be it. Sad, but better to be hated for being a good person than loved for being a mediocrity or a knave.

And to off yourself out of concern with how people remember you is a condemnation of our society, our lack of charity, our lack of magnanimity, and our selfish prioritization of convenience. Full throttle consumerism.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#212

Post by Noaidi »

lukan wrote: post #192
Noaidi wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But do people who have dementia or say a mental illness have the capacity to make that decision? It sounds like Daniel Kahneman was suffering from depression after his wife's death and all he saw in the rest of his life was sadness. He had no hope. What day was the best day to die? What if the next day his hope came back?

"What if the next day his hope came back?" What if he tried that, but every day just got worse than the last day? And people don't get any younger. My grandmother is 98. She hates her life since she could not go out anymore. But she is catholic and suicide would be a mortal sin. So she waits till gods take her. And suffers till then. I would make a different choice for sure. If life is hell and no one depends on me,…

> What if he tried that, but every day just got worse than the last day?

Anyone can say that about their life right now, can't they? How many people struggling today think that their life will get no better? Look at all those who made it through slavery, what hope did they have? Their hope came from their faith.

Suffering has a purpose, this is something your grandmother understands through her faith. Buddhists understand this as well. Maybe the problem is not our suffering, but our lack of faith in others and in in something bigger than ourselves.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#213

Post by zigzag312 »

bityard wrote: post #187
dbZJtFuAXUrVLmY wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment really bothers me. I am not put off by the idea that the memory of a person is worth protecting, what I am put off by is the suggestion that death is a good option here, or that death is better than having lived those 3 years of life. The idea that when someone loses the capacity to retain their reputation and dignity it would be better for them and others that they were dead and that they have nothing g…

> I am really pro assisted suicide as a way of shortening suffering You don't consider years of mental trauma on the individual and years burden and stress on loved ones to be suffering?

That's the issue with assisted suicide. A lot of old people bring burden and stress on loved ones at some point. How many old people will be guilt tripped into an assisted suicide because of this philosophy?

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#214

Post by darkmighty »

dkga wrote: post #141
AQuantized wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You really don't want to end up with dementia and related illnesses, it totally sours everyone's view of you. This seems like such an absurd conclusion to this, as though the opinions of other people of you are what matter when you functionally lose your personhood and then die. Maybe a better focus would be that there often isn't a good way for a community to manage a person who suddenly becomes irrational because…

This. Life is such a precious random occurrence that failing to protect it in the face [dementia|physical disabilities|etc] is the real tragedy.

It's not like life stops when someone (with a grave an irreversible condition that causes suffering) dies. It goes on with the young generations (i.e. the billions of them!). I think too much clinging to a single life causes the whole (which is more important) to suffer. That's not to say we shouldn't value and respect elders, but clinging to life excessively is ignorant and potentially cruel, in my humble opinion. I defend the right to die in the face of incurable diseases that cause a lot of anguish and suffering.

I think clinging to life is partially rooted in an egoist/solipsistic metaphysics that you yourself are all that matters (to yourself at least, of course). Relax, we're just a small part of the cosmos. Ancient and immortal :)

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#215

Post by LogicFailsMe »

hypeatei wrote: post #97
sarchertech wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. You get the money now as opposed to potentially many years from now. 2. You likely get much more money if they die now without spending it on cost of living, and healthcare. People do all kinds of awful things in order to get control of an elderly family member’s money—up to and including outright murder. Pressuring a suggestible family member into assisted suicide is a comparatively easy and low risk method.

> People do all kinds of awful things in order to ... Okay, sure, but how much of the population is this awful and does it actually matter since they can't consent to someone else's suicide anyway? I don't think this is as much of a widespread issue as its made out to be, to be honest.

My brother likely exploited his power of attorney to accelerate our mother's demise and may have injected her with insulin to get the job done. So there's your first datapoint.

What's definite, however, is that he made ~75% of her estate vanish into thin air before throwing her into a low-end nursing home where he wouldn't pay $6/day to have her bathed so she died in her own filth. Nevermind she had a 6-figure pension and longterm care for life. He wanted her gone because dementia had made her unmanageable to him yet he wouldn't let her go to live with any of her other children because he feared he would lose control of the estate through his PoA.

And because he had that PoA, no one could dispute his choices in time to save her. The courts and Adult Protective Services were useless bordering on complicit. The day we finally got a positive court verdict was absolutely 100% coincidentally no connection whatsoever you see 2 days before she suddenly passed.

Lesson learned: when you grow old, don't give anyone on the inheritance train any sort of PoA or they'll instantly become a PoS.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#217

Post by esafak »

0xEF wrote: post #35
pflenker wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could express your wishes about how you would like to be treated in advance, while you are still clear in the head. That’s already possible for other situations, like when you are braindead and entirely dependent on machines to keep you alive, with no chance of recovery.

Having a living will is a great idea in general. My dad got a brain tumor and had no documentation on what he wanted do with his estate, in the event he became vegetative, etc. By the time he realized he needed one, it was too late for "sound mind judgement" and my mom had to go through this ridiculous legal process to ensure she held on to his assets and whatnot while she was directly caring for a dying man. Save yo…

Unfortunately some people refuse to prepare because they don't want to think about death.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#218

Post by anothereng »

mcdonje wrote: post #179
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that Hunter Thompson basically did this. Kinda "on-brand" for him, really. I had a friend that decided to stop treatment (dialysis), when he realized that he'd never get off it (he couldn't get a transplant). He was in his late 60s. It was both a sad, and joyous experience. He took about a month to pass (renal failure). He was Catholic, and wouldn't do assisted suicide. During that month, a bunch of us would…

>He was Catholic, and wouldn't do assisted suicide. I thought Jain the perspective shared in this comment is valuable: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45548178 Well, not just the comment, but also the wikipedia article linked to in the comment. Obviously, Jainism isn't Catholicism, but this part of the wikipedia article got me thinking: >It is not considered a suicide by Jain scholars because it is not an act of…

No, it will always be wrong to kill an innocent person whether that is yourself or another doesn't matter. Our lives are lent to us by God

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#219

Post by esafak »

dotnet00 wrote: post #208
joelwilliamson wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He’d be dead either way, the question is if having those three years were a net improvement to his life

By that logic we should invoke the death penalty for everyone who has been sentenced to life in prison and has exhausted all their appeals, or any seniors convicted of a crime. Their life probably won't improve anymore, and in the latter case they're going to die in a few years anyway, so might as well just lighten the load on society?

No, you'd let them decide if they want to die.
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