I’m trying to figure out why this feels so unsettling to me. I can understand wanting to end one’s life because of unbearable pain or illness, but something about this just feels wrong.
Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland
81–90 of 655 posts
Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
Inheritance.
So... something you're entitled to regardless of how they die? I don't see why, in this hypothetical, a person would spend energy encouraging assisted suicide when they'll get inheritance eventually anyway. Am I missing something?
You seem to be forgetting that sometimes people want things now.
Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland
#83So he was very old without any significant problems, but he wanted to avoid the inevitable problems? If you’ve already made it to 90 with no major issues, you’re expected to make it to 95 and you could make easily live to 100. My wife’s grandad is 90 and he still lives alone, drives, plays golf nearly everyday, and regularly sees his 12 grandchildren and many great grandchildren. He even made the 9 hour trip to come…
If the society treats people badly, that's not a reason to deny them the ability to do final exit with dignity. We must fight to fix the problem cases, not take dignity away from those who suffer from it.
> It’s relatively common for families to push people into nursing homes,
So you are rejected by your family and punished even more by taking away a dignified exit strategy?
Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland
#84Earlier quoted context omitted.
Inheritance.
So... something you're entitled to regardless of how they die? I don't see why, in this hypothetical, a person would spend energy encouraging assisted suicide when they'll get inheritance eventually anyway. Am I missing something?
1. You get the money now as opposed to potentially many years from now.
2. You likely get much more money if they die now without spending it on cost of living, and healthcare.
People do all kinds of awful things in order to get control of an elderly family member’s money—up to and including outright murder. Pressuring a suggestible family member into assisted suicide is a comparatively easy and low risk method.
Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland
#85More of this, please.
What is the point of living your last 10 years of life bed ridden? This is how I will go.
Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland
#86I had an old teacher who died almost a year ago. Great guy, very sociable, knew everyone in the little town he lived in. Kept in touch with a lot of students. Good neighbour, friendly guy who'd talk to everyone. He got Alzheimers. He started forgetting stuff, and it frustrated him. He got caught driving dangerously, and cursed the doctor who took away his license. He argued with me about the state of some chicken he…
I read your comment and it strikes me as a cautionary tale that can be used by bad people to justify or push for eugenics: "they took him; they said he developed Alzheimer's".
As we're currently seeing happen: whatever is left unsaid in the body of the law can and will be abused by evil people to concentrate more power (even if the spirit of the law advocates for something kind).
So, we have to normalize some sort of stress tests for laws... because you sure don't want to be dragged against your will because you're poor.
Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland
#87The sad demise of Robin Williams made me a believer of assisted suicide. The option to go out with dignity should be available to everyone. That said, there is a problem in at least some places where assisted suicide is available where it keeps getting recommended to disabled people who don't want to die. That needs to be solved. Seems like an easy solve. Just don't do it. There is a cost reduction incentive, though,…
> That said, there is a problem in at least some places where assisted suicide is available where it keeps getting recommended to disabled people who don't want to die. Where? This is a thing which always pops up in these debates because it is a deep-rooted fear, but are there countries where this is a thing?
> 60% of the patients who died with Kevorkian's help were not terminally ill, and at least 13 had not complained of pain....The report also stated that Kevorkian failed to refer at least 17 patients to a pain specialist after they complained of chronic pain and sometimes failed to obtain a complete medical record for his patients, with at least three autopsies of suicides Kevorkian had assisted with showing the person who committed suicide to have no physical sign of disease. Rebecca Badger, a patient of Kevorkian's and a mentally troubled drug abuser, had been mistakenly diagnosed with multiple sclerosis. The report also stated that Janet Adkins, Kevorkian's first euthanasia patient, had been chosen without Kevorkian ever speaking to her, only with her husband, and that when Kevorkian first met Adkins two days before her assisted suicide he "made no real effort to discover whether Ms. Adkins wished to end her life," as the Michigan Court of Appeals put it in a 1995 ruling upholding an order against Kevorkian's activity.[26] According to The Economist: "Studies of those who sought out Dr. Kevorkian, however, suggest that though many had a worsening illness... it was not usually terminal. Autopsies showed five people had no disease at all... Little over a third were in pain. Some presumably suffered from no more than hypochondria or depression."[27]
Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah but if you are in that state, you probably don’t give a shit and everybody else seems to be the problem. So how do you solve this? When dementia isn’t too far progressed, your life seems to be still worthwhile to live and once the dementia gets worse, it’s too late to realize this.
I read that in some societies, if you ended up not being able to feed yourself, they would bring you to your favorite tree and leave you there. If you ended back in camp you’d be welcomed. If you didn’t, that was your end. I found that remarkably comforting and peaceful.
Death from hunger (esp. when you're frightened and don't understand what's happening) is neither comfortable nor comforting
Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland
#89So he was very old without any significant problems, but he wanted to avoid the inevitable problems? If you’ve already made it to 90 with no major issues, you’re expected to make it to 95 and you could make easily live to 100. My wife’s grandad is 90 and he still lives alone, drives, plays golf nearly everyday, and regularly sees his 12 grandchildren and many great grandchildren. He even made the 9 hour trip to come…
My nan made it to 92 without any mental issues, but then deteriorated significantly over the course of 18 months, forgetting she'd ever been married, had kids, etc, just reverted to believing she was a teenager who wanted to go home to her parents (in a house which was destroyed in ww2)
She couldn't look after herself was was forced into care by the courts. Since going into a home she's physically never been fitter, but mentally she's not the person she was 10 years ago -- it's not that she's changed personality, it's as if her memory of the last 80 years was wiped.
Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland
#90Earlier quoted context omitted.
That’s the problem. If there’s a financial incentive people will find way to push it. That’s my biggest concern about assisted suicide for an otherwise healthy person who just wants to avoid the inevitable decline (as in this case). There is a direct financial incentive for families to push people into this. The only way I can see to remove that would be to require that your estate can’t go to anyone who potentially…
> There is a direct financial incentive for families to push people into this What financial incentives are there in killing someone?
Many western countries make dying slowly with Alzheimer’s very expensive, by the standards of normal families.
Between doctors, nurses and lawyers you can burn through a million bucks in five years easily. And most families don’t have a million bucks cash to spare.
On the other hand, if they die after six months, instead of after 5 years? The family doesn’t lose the farm.