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How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

cnn.com

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Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#411

Post by tguvot »

chollida1 wrote: post #235
starik36 wrote: post #97

* * *

I can't believe I'm weighing in on a political thread, but the "deal" is very one sided. It offers very little for the Palestinians in terms of creating their own country and ability to self govern and gives Israel pretty much everything they want including some control over Palestine. The current "peace deal" is terrible for the Palestinians. No other country would sign it either.

the deal is not with palestinians but with hamas (unless you say that hamas represents palestinians). palestinians at large and palestinian authority support this deal.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#412

Post by unethical_ban »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #387
4gotunameagain wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would go as far as to say that the very existence of Hamas is due to the actions of Israel. Do you think that Israel, with the most advanced intelligence agency in the world, capable of planting bombs in pagers just in case for when they need them, did not know about the october 7 attack beforehand ??

> Do you think that Israel, with the most advanced intelligence agency in the world, capable of planting bombs in pagers just in case for when they need them, did not know about the october 7 attack beforehand ?? Yes. Quite easily. We missed 9/11. And nobody can still find Al Houthi.

9/11 was different. Yes, that's the difference. airport security was more lax, the way we dealt with hijackings was different, and the security on airplanes was minimal.

You had a heavily fortified military DMZ between the massive surveillance and military state of Israel and Hamas flying in with kites, bulldozers, and motorcycles. I hope it was merely a massive failure due to arrogance and misallocation of resources, because a plausible alternative is sadly realistic and believable.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#414

Post by axython »

C6JEsQeQa5fCjE wrote: post #305
flyinglizard wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Rhodesia was "destroyed", and the outcome was for the better. Apartheid South Africa was "destroyed", and the outcome was for the better. French Algeria was "destroyed", and the outcome was for the better. When Israel gets similarly "destroyed", and it is no longer a supremacist colonial state, and the people who remain are living with equal rights, it will be for the better. Everyone other than colonists and white s…

Just out of curiosity, what does "destroyed" mean in Israel case? Is this a situation, that can potentially lead to Israel ruled by Hamas and Hamas having a nuke and army, that can easily reach Europe? How is that "better"? There is a reason why no one, except extremists (on both sides, both Greater Israel or whatever, or Greater Palatine) support one state solution.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#415

Post by catlover76 »

ciconia wrote: post #236
justin66 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People sometimes forget how bitterly divided Israel was before October 7th, with hundreds of thousands of people protesting in the streets. The war put some of the infighting on hold for a while, but all the former problems still exist, and the stakes are higher.

The division is not about the starvation of Gaza. All Zionist parties in the Israeli parliament support the military campaign in Gaza. Apart from some lip-service from left-wing leaders, to my knowledge no Jewish leader has spoken against the starvation. Israeli media (except for Haaretz) have largely denied that there is a famine, and have called it a "propaganda campaign" by the Hamas.

If you watch Peter Beinart's channel, he has had Ehud Olmert and Avraham Berg on. IDK if they touched upon starvation specifically, but it seemed like they were not in denial about Israel's actions, especially the latter (I think Beinart lightly pressed Olmert on whether Israel's actions constitute genocide, and Olmert disagreed, and I don't know that I begrudge him that, given his position).

Neither of these former politicians are current leaders, of course.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#416

Post by bdangubic »

dfxm12 wrote: post #29
rubzah wrote: post #4

There is simply no excuse for blocking the entry of food into a region wholesale. For that alone they should, at the very least, be an outcast in the international community. But here we are.

That they have the backing and blessing of the US government is the counter-argument to this. The US can almost unilaterally end this war if they want to.

[flagged]

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#417

Post by JumpCrisscross »

phgn wrote: post #405
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Way to whitewash a genocide I honestly think invoking the g- word is harmful to the Palestinian cause at this point. It's a war. There are war crimes. Maybe there's genocidal intent. But that seems like a distraction compared to actual harm on the ground.

The UN calls it a genocide now. What evidence more do you need?

> UN calls it a genocide now

One, really important to specify that the Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and Israel said this, not the UN as a whole. "The UN" is generally held to be the General Assembly.

Two, I'm not disputing that it probably is a genocide. I'm just saying that people have been calling it a genocide well before we had evidence it was one. As a result, the term has lost moral weight.

Put another way, I don't think support for Palestine increases by calling it a genocide again. I do think it increases by showing, specifically, what the famine means for the kids on the ground can change hearts and minds. (Nobody, at this point, is probably going to be swung on a fundamental opinion. People may, however, re-prioritise this politically.)

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#418

Post by yibg »

JamesAdir wrote: post #336
yibg wrote: post #290

It's wild to me how many people here use the "it's war, bad things happen" to justify the situation. Weird that it needs to be said, but this is why war crimes are a thing. Just because it's an armed conflict, doesn't mean anything goes.

[flagged]

This is just a variant of "it's war, bad things happen", with the addition of "they started it".

Putting the debate of who started what aside, does someone starting a war justify war crimes against them?

- who started what

- specific conditions to end things

- who agrees to what

All of these are distractions. The core issues are, are there war crimes being committed or not? Is the population of Gaza starving or not? If so, is Israel actively contributing or deliberately causing the situation or not?

EDIT: this is a good example of how collective punishment is being justified, to blame the population of Gaza for the actions (or inaction) of Hamas. "Well, if they just do X, then they wouldn't have to starve".

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#419

Post by m101 »

phgn wrote: post #409

Two numbers on the effectiveness of that strategy: 680.000 and 380.000. The total number of Palestinians murdered, and the number of those who were kids under 5 years old. source: https://arena.org.au/politics-of-counting-gazas-dead/

These numbers are just false. Even the Hamas numbers are 10x less than this!

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#420

Post by phgn »

moogly wrote: post #308
glonq wrote: post #153

"Israel accused the IPC of lowering the second threshold of acutely malnourished children for a famine declaration, which the IPC has denied." Damn, Israel is really arguing about how much child starvation they are allowed to inflict before it becomes egregious? That might be another one of those "are we the baddies?" moments right there.

[flagged]

Sent by whom?

Also, the Israeli government cannot be trusted.

Their whole strategy since 1948 has been about distracting the Palestinians with fake peace processes that were never meant to lead to anything.

(see the book "The Hundred Years’ War on Palestine")

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