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Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#101

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

redeux wrote: post #69
dontlaugh wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there? They seem only distinguishable aesthetically to me. They’re much closer to each other than UK’s Tories and Labour, for sure.

There are a lot of similarities when it comes to their tendency towards Corporatocracy and military spending, but it largely ends there. When it comes to taxes, fiscal priorities, rights for individuals, foreign policy, crime and punishment, and of course social issues they are very different and in most cases take the opposite approach. For example, Republicans want lower taxes for the wealthy while Democrats want l…

Democratic voters want those things. It's not at all obvious the party establishment does.

The tell is that when Republicans push through their policies, Democratic opposition is weak and ineffectual. Instead of ferocious opposition the Dems send one of their famous sternly worded letters.

Since at least 2000 the party establishment has absolutely refused to do any of the things it could do to change this - including packing the Supreme Court, supporting and promoting grass roots activism between elections, using the filibuster, and so on.

Biden couldn't even get any of Trump's prosecutions over the line - including televised evidence of insurrection, and treasonous mishandling of official state secrets (!)

However it's spun, there is a very obvious reluctance to challenge the extremes of Republicanism.

The party is far more likely to censure one of its non-centrists than its centrists, while the opposite is true of the Republicans.

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#102

Post by anon291 »

SavageNoble wrote: post #46
shortrounddev2 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually there's a massive difference between Democrats and Republicans in the US, and that difference matters a lot

Yeah, no. The Overton window is so incredibly small in America that normal, run of the mill political positions - either left or right - in the rest of the world are deemed extremist and radical in America. Your Corporate media is the problem.

On the other hand, both American parties are radical compared to the rest of the world on human rights issues such as free speech

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#103

Post by aaomidi »

morkalork wrote: post #89
FridayoLeary wrote: post #34

>What’s more, much of the population, “probably a statistical majority, [just] wanted to get on with their own lives without worrying about declaring their allegiance to one side or the other,” Still the same today.

The absolute truth right here. Just go on reddit to see it any time a roadway gets blocked on protest.

Reddit is one of the most as astroturfed platforms out there.

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#104

Post by detourdog »

ta1243 wrote: post #53
SavageNoble wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, no. The Overton window is so incredibly small in America that normal, run of the mill political positions - either left or right - in the rest of the world are deemed extremist and radical in America. Your Corporate media is the problem.

Things have been far more polarised since the rise of social media. You can blame fox news and cnn or whatever all you want, but given how far the US is from the days of Clinton, Reagan, Nixon, Kennedy etc I don't see how you can simply blame "corporate media".

Corporate media used to have regulations on how much local media any single company could own. I think the consolidation of media ownership made it easier to have a single corporate vision.

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#105

Post by Yizahi »

SavageNoble wrote: post #46
shortrounddev2 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually there's a massive difference between Democrats and Republicans in the US, and that difference matters a lot

Yeah, no. The Overton window is so incredibly small in America that normal, run of the mill political positions - either left or right - in the rest of the world are deemed extremist and radical in America. Your Corporate media is the problem.

The problem is not media, at least not primarily. The problem is an ancient and not-democratic first past the post system, preventing emergence of any alternative, good or bad.

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#106

Post by alex43578 »

ceejayoz wrote: post #94
alex43578 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you are protected. These are not unreasonable searches.

I am not obligated to carry papers as a citizen. If I answer "yep, I'm a citizen", and ICE says at one of the internal checkpoints "well we don't believe you, prove it", what now?

If ICE has probable cause to believe you are an alien and don’t have the necessary documents, you could be detained or arrested.

If ICE doesn’t have probable cause to believe you’re an alien, you’re free to go.

Things could be different based on state-level stop and identify statutes when interacting with state LEO.

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#107

Post by ben7799 »

I have always thought the fact Boston was a hotbed of revolution and New York city was a loyalist stronghold (as the article mentions) has had some small subconscious effect on the ongoing rivalry between the two cities all the way to the present day.

We joke about the Red Sox and the Yankees but deep down there is this smidgen of it that goes all the way back.

Also from the article, amazing how William Franklin has been almost erased by history even though Benjamin Franklin is endlessly discussed in elementary history in the US. A fascinating addition to the story. I'm sure historians are familiar with this, but it's likely something every day Americans should all know about. I know it was not mentioned in my education through high school, including AP history. There was scant discussion of loyalists, the Tories were definitely mentioned but it was not covered in the same way the community & family divisions of the Civil War were.

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#108

Post by ceejayoz »

alex43578 wrote: post #106
ceejayoz wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not obligated to carry papers as a citizen. If I answer "yep, I'm a citizen", and ICE says at one of the internal checkpoints "well we don't believe you, prove it", what now?

If ICE has probable cause to believe you are an alien and don’t have the necessary documents, you could be detained or arrested. If ICE doesn’t have probable cause to believe you’re an alien, you’re free to go. Things could be different based on state-level stop and identify statutes when interacting with state LEO.

> If ICE doesn’t have probable cause to believe you’re an alien, you’re free to go.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/trump-ice-detained-c...

"In 2017, Stevens began studying cases like Watson’s, combing through court records for instances of ICE detainees being released after the government acknowledged they were citizens. She connected with dozens, including many who had been deported before the government could correct its error, and who got in touch with her from other countries. 'This is happening all the time,' she says. In her study, she found that, on average, U.S. citizens detained by ICE spent 180 days behind bars. Deportation is always a real possibility. At a mass removal hearing she attended, Stevens remembers the judge declaring that all 50 defendants would be deported; as the bailiff cleared the room, a man stood up and shouted, 'I thought I’d have a chance to speak to a judge!'"

"It took years, but eventually the BIA, even with the naturalization papers in front of them, denied his request for a stay, concluding the government could deport him. The court’s argument was arcane: It maintained that Watson couldn’t prove his father had custody of him when he was naturalized."

"A court would eventually rule that Watson had been wrongfully imprisoned. But the statute of limitations to sue the government began the day he got locked in ICE detention; it had passed by the time he was released."

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#109

Post by ecshafer »

dfxm12 wrote: post #28
komali2 wrote: post #2

[flagged]

I don't know what happened to our values Concentration of media has allowed conservative think tanks to shape people's values. Ten years ago [0], this meant all conservatives were getting marching orders from Fox News. Today, there is the illusion of choice among conservative media outlets (Fox News, X, Newsmax, etc.), but they all send the same message. Even traditionally more moderate outlets, like the WSJ, are bei…

And where do liberals get their marching orders? Or did this effect not happen there?

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#110

Post by AnimalMuppet »

jeffbee wrote: post #96
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, but in the current situation, the laws are federal, and the feds are choosing to enforce them. A state or city preventing the feds from enforcing them is not protected by sovereign immunity. It seems to me that the most that can legally be done is to require the feds to actually follow due process. (But I thought different yesterday, and I may think different tomorrow...)

I think you're misrepresenting the situation and the relationship between the federal and state and local governments. There certainly is not anything in the Constitution that compels a local government to allow a federal agency to house their prisoners in the local jail, or to have offices in the local police station, or to have keys to the coffee room in the local courthouse. For that matter, if the feds happen to…

Not giving material support, sure. "We don't like your law. You have the right to enforce it, but we are not going to help you do so." Sure, that's fine.

Actively hindering is a whole additional step, though. I'm pretty sure at least some cities crossed it.

(How actively? Not to the point of arresting or shooting at ICE agents, but still further than "not helping". And if you're going to ask for references, I can't give them. This is my impression of several "sanctuary cities", but I can't point to a concrete incident.)

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