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Sorry, grads: Entry-level tech jobs are getting wiped out

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Re: Sorry, grads: Entry-level tech jobs are getting wiped out

#111

The answer to this is easy. Rewind time and put a 200K minimum salary on visa talent, and ban products sold here to utilize overseas employees. Sell it here, you build it here. Then you have all the jobs you need and more. To fix it today, you do the same thing. But you'd have to also cancel all the visas, and invalidate citizenship that was founded on fraud. Not much more to this story, if your concern is having job…

You’re describing current policy. It’s crashing the economy, as predicted by anyone that has read an introductory economics textbook.

Re: Sorry, grads: Entry-level tech jobs are getting wiped out

#112
post #53

Commenting anon, because i'm very concerned about how we are leaving the industry for our children, and how little executives care about the future. 1. anything we used to give to entry-level we now give to offshore workers, typically in Asia. While mean wages metrics look great, the cost savings are an illusion because we spend twice as much time communicating and tacking back and forth to the final answer across ti…

> it is ridiculous to expect a computer science grand to "driving forklifts, construction, moving, factory work" I agree, but at the same time this is what we told truck drivers when self driving cars was going to take over like a decade ago ("reskill, and at your own dime"). Kind of karma. Capitalism doesn't care unfortunately.

Well I don’t think it was kids still in school telling the truck drivers that so I’m not sure what karma has to do with it.

Re: Sorry, grads: Entry-level tech jobs are getting wiped out

#113
post #86

Is it AI or just good ol' offshoring? Mix of both? If AI can just make any dev 10-20% more efficient that's a whole lot of jobs no longer needed.

Increasing efficiency doesn't necessarily reduce the number of jobs needed. Like the switch from programming in assembly language to high-level languages increased efficiency more than 20% but the number of developer jobs also greatly increased during that period. The demand for software is effectively infinite so in the past efficiency improvements just meant that more software was built.

> The demand for software is effectively infinite

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Re: Sorry, grads: Entry-level tech jobs are getting wiped out

#114

Most of this is not occurring due to AI or offshoring, that's just what's told to investors. In reality, it's the macroeconomic climate that has shifted since a few years ago, namely Section 174 changes for amortization of R&D expenditures, overhiring during covid, and higher Fed rates.

The only real answer. AI is the current scapegoat for any self-inflicted short sightedness, like the 0% interest rate over-hiring times of 2020-2021. Why blame yourself as a company when you can blame the loudest current news and market hype wave?

And not just blame but make your stock price go up saying you'll replace all your developers (even though that won't happen for another 20 years, if ever).

Re: Sorry, grads: Entry-level tech jobs are getting wiped out

#115
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High paying jobs? yes. Good jobs? no. The organizations are typically dysfunctional and all of the things that the original comment here lead to really poor working environments and burnout.

Poor working environments? You mean the office is sometimes too noisy or too cold or the coffee runs out?

I would describe a poor office environment as an open one. Cubicles are much better, and offices a little better than that.

These are not just unproductive environments, they're unpleasant. Having to be "on" for 8 hours a day because you don't even get a vague idea of privacy is exhausting.

Re: Sorry, grads: Entry-level tech jobs are getting wiped out

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High paying jobs? yes. Good jobs? no. The organizations are typically dysfunctional and all of the things that the original comment here lead to really poor working environments and burnout.

Isn't that a lot better than really poor working environments, burnout, AND low pay?

Are these the only options in the table? Perhaps it’s ok for people to want better.

Re: Sorry, grads: Entry-level tech jobs are getting wiped out

#117
We recently had an open position that could have been a fit for a new grad with some internship experience or a solid portfolio of projects from just school.

We had just over 20 applicants and selected 6 for interviews using a rubric to score candidates by reviewing CV/resume and cover letter. The rubric doesn't include a specific "years of experience" guideline anywhere. Of our 6 selected candidates, 3 were new grads and 3 were experienced candidates.

At that point in our process, 1 of our 3 new grads ghosted us and never responded to multiple contact attempts to schedule an interview - this may have been our top candidate by initial rubric evaluation. One of our other new grad candidates accepted another job and backed out of our scheduled interview. The third new grad did interview and had an unremarkable interview.

Ultimately, one of the experienced candidates received a job offer. This experienced candidate was one of the top two by initial rubric review along with the new grad who ghosted us. Funnily enough, these two candidates were the only unanimous selections by everyone on the hiring committee to interview, even using a rubric.

There were several parts of the process I found interesting. First, just over 20 applicants is typical for applicant count for an opened position over the last 8-10 years for us. There wasn't a noticeable uptick in applicants despite the general perception of it being a "bad hiring market." Second, we continue to find that many candidates don't have a CV/resume or cover letter that leans into demonstrating the candidate can write code. Maybe this is a result of general hiring processes that lean into automatic scanning and processing of CV/resumes and cover letters while my group actually reads these somewhat carefully and usually from a "we hope this person clearly demonstrates we should interview them" perspective. Third, despite my personal misgivings, the hiring process clearly selects for "has worked with experience. Even a great candidate can't seem to be attractive to other folks in our hiring process if their past experience doesn't include use. Fourth, and this was a change different from past hiring, 4-5 of the applicants were ML/AI-focused candidates with MS degrees (and one PhD). This position is/was clearly just a normal app developer job in an organization that doesn't ship software for sale - we do small-scale app dev and data management for our internal organization users.

These ML/AI-focused candidates were interesting for other reasons. Almost none of them demonstrated any experience on paper besides "wrote a little python to load some ML/AI tool and ran experiments." This isn't bad experience on the face of it, but their CV/resumes and cover letters didn't talk about software dev at all. To a candidate, it was almost all "ran and tweaked model for small gain in performance" for some data set. I'm not sure where these folks will land in the current hiring market?

Re: Sorry, grads: Entry-level tech jobs are getting wiped out

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you were right, we wouldnt have millions of h1s being hired in the US. You cant have offshore workers away from family, alone in a foreign country, with an RTO mandate, and glued to a desk in SF, constantly worried about deportation. This is about control, power, and abuse.

We don't have millions of H1Bs being hired in the US. The exact number isn't tracked but I don't think any estimate puts it at more than a million.

I just googled and in 2024 there >200k approvals for Indian nationals. That’s one year, one source country. And I believe that’s capped. Over time, it must be millions.

Re: Sorry, grads: Entry-level tech jobs are getting wiped out

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

))) Yeah that's bull. I'm not saving any costs with a Visa sponsored employee. It often isnt about saving money, it is about having fragile immigrant workers on a leash that you can control with the constant threat of layoff--->deportation

If it's control, you get the same in CEE and India with restrictive non-compete clauses that would make Illinois look like an open market, frivolous lawsuits, and no-objection certificates. Control doesn't impact my bottom line. Reality is, H1B hiring is just as impacted as normal hiring in the US.

You don’t speak for the entire industry.

Re: Sorry, grads: Entry-level tech jobs are getting wiped out

#120
post #84

It would be nice if the President signed an executive order that tariffs companies 1000% for off shoring tech work. These folks are stealing our jerbs.

I wouldn’t look to the white house for solutions. Instead of discouraging offshoring, they’re threatening the physical safety of highly skilled foreigners. Those people have been the glue that holds the US economy together since, what, WWII? If the US is no longer an attractive destination, they’ll set up shop overseas. Fast forward ten years, and the jobs they create will definitely not be in the US. Concretely: Sil…

All that needs to change. The glue to the US economy needs to be Americans. We have the best universities in the world but we decide to invest in foreign students instead of our own for wage reasons.
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