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Sorry, grads: Entry-level tech jobs are getting wiped out

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Re: Sorry, grads: Entry-level tech jobs are getting wiped out

#81

Post by michaelmrose »

qoez wrote: post #53
corp8drone8sf wrote: post #17

Commenting anon, because i'm very concerned about how we are leaving the industry for our children, and how little executives care about the future. 1. anything we used to give to entry-level we now give to offshore workers, typically in Asia. While mean wages metrics look great, the cost savings are an illusion because we spend twice as much time communicating and tacking back and forth to the final answer across ti…

> it is ridiculous to expect a computer science grand to "driving forklifts, construction, moving, factory work" I agree, but at the same time this is what we told truck drivers when self driving cars was going to take over like a decade ago ("reskill, and at your own dime"). Kind of karma. Capitalism doesn't care unfortunately.

We should replace manual work with automation we shouldn't chop off the tree of industry knowing we will continue to need non entry level knowledge workers after current workers retire.

Also the we haven't actually replaced truck driver's at this point so nobody was actually told to reskill on their own dime yet and the "we" that specuated on this point is largely merely pragmatic.

Re: Sorry, grads: Entry-level tech jobs are getting wiped out

#82

Post by paularmstrong »

3thr0waway wrote: post #57
corp8drone8sf wrote: post #17

Commenting anon, because i'm very concerned about how we are leaving the industry for our children, and how little executives care about the future. 1. anything we used to give to entry-level we now give to offshore workers, typically in Asia. While mean wages metrics look great, the cost savings are an illusion because we spend twice as much time communicating and tacking back and forth to the final answer across ti…

Can confirm. At FAANG, it typically works like this. What's really striking to me is the rate of attrition. Can anyone explain it? Aren't these good jobs? Aren't there less opportunities for good jobs for them to be able to churn to? Where are they going? Why do they churn at such high rates?

High paying jobs? yes. Good jobs? no. The organizations are typically dysfunctional and all of the things that the original comment here lead to really poor working environments and burnout.

Re: Sorry, grads: Entry-level tech jobs are getting wiped out

#83

Post by palmotea »

psunavy03 wrote: post #73
palmotea wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Adjusting expectations is important. If you start with the expectation that all you will have is a pot to piss in then it is all up from there. You're just coaching people to be passive in the face of a hostile society, and that's bad, because it lets society off the hook for providing for its citizens. Also isn't it strange that's mainly expected of the people at the bottom? Maybe the shareholders should start to…

> you should be working to burn it all the fuck down to the ground. . . . which is literally never the correct answer.

>> you should be working to burn it all the fuck down to the ground.

> ...which is literally never the correct answer.

But it's the answer chosen all the time. If "entry-level tech jobs are getting wiped out," some (usually distributed) group made the decision to burn those new-grads plans to the ground. Why should they be insulated from similar decisions?

Working "to burn it all the fuck down to the ground" is just spreading that "love" to those groups. Those groups should be threatened with that, because otherwise they're not going to restrain themselves.

Re: Sorry, grads: Entry-level tech jobs are getting wiped out

#84

Post by hedora »

butterlettuce wrote: post #68

It would be nice if the President signed an executive order that tariffs companies 1000% for off shoring tech work. These folks are stealing our jerbs.

I wouldn’t look to the white house for solutions.

Instead of discouraging offshoring, they’re threatening the physical safety of highly skilled foreigners. Those people have been the glue that holds the US economy together since, what, WWII?

If the US is no longer an attractive destination, they’ll set up shop overseas. Fast forward ten years, and the jobs they create will definitely not be in the US.

Concretely: Silicon Valley’s white collar workers are 66% first generation immigrants, and it’s the 4th largest economy on earth. (The US, including Silicon Valley, is number one). Just about all of my native born coworkers moved here for work.

Re: Sorry, grads: Entry-level tech jobs are getting wiped out

#85

Post by happytoexplain »

ty6853 wrote: post #2

I did a lot of driving forklifts, construction, moving, factory work, etc when junior in the job market after graduating near the top of my class with strong internship experience from a top 10 engineering college. Adjusting expectations is important. If you start with the expectation that all you will have is a pot to piss in then it is all up from there. Things may never look up, but when they do, I've found a lot…

There is a very valid point you are mostly sticking to, but your last sentence is essentially "employers admire people who don't complain", which I'm going to have to push back on. Yes, not complaining is an excellent principle to have generally, but it matters why something bad is happening. A large proportion of people don't just think the economy is bad because, well, it happens, we're all trying our best - they see people and policies making it bad. There is a huge conversation about the details and realities of that perception, but that's irrelevant to the perception's existence.

For example:

If I am underpaid and overworked because my employer and I and all the people doing their best for the economy are all suffering together under unavoidable circumstances, I am going to stay tough, keep my head up, count my blessings, etc.

If I am underpaid and overworked because policy-makers are enabling it and our employers are deciding to shift a disproportionate share of the societal suffering onto employees and we are all allowing a culture of overwork and underpayment to seep in - I'm going to do something you are uncharitably describing as "wailing".

Re: Sorry, grads: Entry-level tech jobs are getting wiped out

#86

Post by nradov »

margorczynski wrote: post #5

Is it AI or just good ol' offshoring? Mix of both? If AI can just make any dev 10-20% more efficient that's a whole lot of jobs no longer needed.

Increasing efficiency doesn't necessarily reduce the number of jobs needed. Like the switch from programming in assembly language to high-level languages increased efficiency more than 20% but the number of developer jobs also greatly increased during that period. The demand for software is effectively infinite so in the past efficiency improvements just meant that more software was built.

Re: Sorry, grads: Entry-level tech jobs are getting wiped out

#87

Post by 3thr0waway »

paularmstrong wrote: post #82
3thr0waway wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can confirm. At FAANG, it typically works like this. What's really striking to me is the rate of attrition. Can anyone explain it? Aren't these good jobs? Aren't there less opportunities for good jobs for them to be able to churn to? Where are they going? Why do they churn at such high rates?

High paying jobs? yes. Good jobs? no. The organizations are typically dysfunctional and all of the things that the original comment here lead to really poor working environments and burnout.

Isn't that a lot better than really poor working environments, burnout, AND low pay?

Re: Sorry, grads: Entry-level tech jobs are getting wiped out

#88

Post by michaelmrose »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #59
Loudergood wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Student loans generally don't wait, and most people wail while they're working the shitty jobs.

Why is why one shouldn’t take on large amounts of debt for questionable return.

What should they do then?

Re: Sorry, grads: Entry-level tech jobs are getting wiped out

#89

Post by ty6853 »

close04 wrote: post #51
ty6853 wrote: post #2

I did a lot of driving forklifts, construction, moving, factory work, etc when junior in the job market after graduating near the top of my class with strong internship experience from a top 10 engineering college. Adjusting expectations is important. If you start with the expectation that all you will have is a pot to piss in then it is all up from there. Things may never look up, but when they do, I've found a lot…

For a lot of students out there now the reality of the "opportunity cost" is skewed. They will invest enormous amounts of time and effort in being the best in uni even if this alone may not bring them a guaranteed leg up over the competition when they face the adult working world. My academic career was always revolving around the top but never quite at the top. So eventually I gave up on investing more effort for di…

A lot of truth to that. Although I graduated well after the dot com days, at that time you usually had to be near the top just to get an internship. You could probably let academics slip a bit after that.

Re: Sorry, grads: Entry-level tech jobs are getting wiped out

#90

Post by WarOnPrivacy »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #71
corp8drone8sf wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you were right, we wouldnt have millions of h1s being hired in the US. You cant have offshore workers away from family, alone in a foreign country, with an RTO mandate, and glued to a desk in SF, constantly worried about deportation. This is about control, power, and abuse.

We don't have millions of H1Bs being hired in the US. The exact number isn't tracked but I don't think any estimate puts it at more than a million.

> We don't have millions of H1Bs being hired in the US.

I think parent means over the long term. The dynamic they're describing has been in place a long time.

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