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ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

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Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#621

Post by JumpCrisscross »

koolba wrote: post #361
blinky81 wrote: post #354

I cannot for the life of me understand why Americans have such a problem with other people coming here to seek a better life. Half this country has been tricked into seeing hardworking immigrants as a threat to their safety and livelihood — but by all metrics, immigrants are a net positive to society. I also take issue with the idea that this extreme exclusionary mindset is somehow new to America. A lot of people fra…

> I cannot for the life of me understand why Americans have such a problem with other people coming here to seek a better life. Half this country has been tricked into seeing hardworking immigrants as a threat to their safety and livelihood — but by all metrics, immigrants are a net positive to society. I have no issue with legal immigration. Far from it, I’m in favor of attracting the best, brightest, and most hard…

> They’re cheating

"Of course, 'It is illegal and unconstitutional to deport, detain for deportation, or recommend deportation of a U.S. citizen.' See Lyttle v. United States, 867 F.Supp.2d 1256 (M.D. Ga. 2012) (citing Tuan Anh Nguyen v. Immigration & Naturalization Serv., 533 U.S. 53, 67 (2001) (affirming that a citizen has the 'absolute right to enter [the United States] borders'); Shapiro v. Thompson, 394 U.S. 618, 629 (1969) ('This Court long ago recognized that the nature of our Federal Union and our constitutional concepts of personal liberty unite to require that all citizens be free to travel throughout the length and breadth of our land uninhibited by statutes, rules, or regulations which unreasonably burden or restrict this movement.')" [1].

To the extent someone is unequivocally cheating, it's ICE.

[1] https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.lawd.21...

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#622

Post by Aloisius »

remarkEon wrote: post #573
wat10000 wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.” This seems pretty clear to me. How else could you interpret it?

The entire interpretation of that amendment turns on this phrase: >and subject to the jurisdiction thereof And if you go back and read what the drafters of that amendment stated they meant on the floor of congress, they did not intend it to mean Jus soli. The idea was so ridiculous at the time that no one thought it worth writing it down. Pity. The controlling Supreme Court case spends a lot of time talking about Eng…

Having read the Senate debate on the amendment to grant citizenship to what would become the 14th amendment, I can't disagree more.

They were absolutely aware that is what it. Indeed, they stated it outright:

> The proposition before us … relates simply in that respect to the children begotten of Chinese parents in California, and it is proposed to declare that they shall be citizens. … I am in favor of doing so. … We are entirely ready to accept the provision proposed in this constitutional amendment, that the children born here of Mongolian parents shall be declared by the Constitution of the United States to be entitled to civil rights and to equal protection before the law with others.

- Senator John Conness (R-CA), May 29, 1866 during Senate debates on citizenship amendment introduced by Senator Jacob Howard (R-MI)

The only real change came when they worried that citizenship would be extended to Indians in tribes we had treaties saying we wouldn't do just that leading to a change that excluded them.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#623

Post by JumpCrisscross »

watwut wrote: post #482
cryptoegorophy wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s the conversation? Separating kids from parents or deporting them with parents because we don’t want them to be separate? There is no question about breaking the law by parents. Question is do you let children be with their mothers(who apparently asked to do so) or no. As someone who came legally to Canada and went through thorough screening of 4 years before coming I just don’t get how people are ok with “chea…

A dad of a kid was literally fighting for the kid to stay. He is an American. I read about one case and that was the situation. Maybe stop making hypotheticals designed to excuse what happened and fake concerns. There was no attempt to keep family together oe do right by the kids.

> dad of a kid was literally fighting for the kid to stay. He is an American

Are you saying he's figuratively American, or that the father is a U.S. citizen. Because VML's petition for writ of habeas [1] doesn't mention the latter.

[1] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69940863/1/v-m-l-v-harp...

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#624

Post by low_tech_love »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #600
low_tech_love wrote: post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically you came to the same conclusion as everyone else who is against this (and who I assume you would consider to be your political opponents): that even though it sounds good and reasonable on paper (as a populist concept), in practice it is invariably used for arbitrary exercise of power. Here is the thing: hard and complex problems require hard and complex solutions, but you chose to put in power the peopl…

> hard and complex problems require hard and complex solutions There's actually a simple solution to illegal immigration: go after the employers. We don't because we want to have our cake and eat it too. (Same reason these raids aren't happening on farms in red states.)

So, real story, I work in a university in Europe, and we’ve been told by the immigration explicitly that we need to increase at least 50% of rejections to applications from Pakistani students. Apparently they come with a student Visa to take a Master’s degree but after a month or two they get a job and disappear from the university. And this is not desirable.

The fun part is that they are allowed to work with their student Visa, and they pay the tuition fees normally, which is spicy.

So basically we have a huge gang problem right now, but instead of deporting gang criminals, we’re deporting honest Pakistani young people who are actually working legally for the country’s companies. But guess how many companies ever got in trouble for this?

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#625

Post by wat10000 »

remarkEon wrote: post #611
wat10000 wrote: post #582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have more info about what they said they meant? Certainly that clause has weight. It excludes diplomats, members of occupying armies, and members of Native tribes. But it seems strange to apply it to others, unless you’re also going to say that they have immunity from our laws as well.

It's not that they have "immunity", it's about whether the US Government has jurisdiction over them, meaning they can conscript them in time of war, collect taxes and so on, and that there isn't another foreign power that can do or already does this. Howard, who introduced the Amendment, said this[1]: >This amendment which I have offered is simply declaratory of what I regard as the law of the land already, that ever…

Thanks. Dude couldn’t even make his own statements unambiguous. And he can’t seem to make up his mind about whether the “subject to the jurisdiction” clause refers to the child or the parents.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#626

Post by riehwvfbk »

viraptor wrote: post #149
ty6853 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically create a huge incentive to drag very sick kids through the darien gap and cartel land with no real plan for foid and housing of their kids? If i did 1% of that someone would call cps to take my kids.

The incentive already exists. But this case is about US citizen kids, not kids brought in. So concentrating on that: > The families, who had lived in the United States for years and had deep ties to their communities > Both families have possible immigration relief The current actions did not make sense and didn't make anything better or solve any problems.

So you'd create extra incentive for having anchor babies in the US? At least the people doing this now have to wait until their anchors become adults and can petition for them.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#627

Post by like_any_other »

mtVessel wrote: post #522
stefap2 wrote: post #512

Six months ago I would have endorsed wide-scale deportations, but after seeing the consequences—families swept into jails, plain-clothes officers ambushing people on their way to work or school, and communities living in constant fear—it’s clear that indiscriminate removals are neither practical nor just. This approach diverts resources from pursuing violent offenders, erodes faith in the rule of law, and forces the…

Serious question: how did you envision "wide-scale deportations" playing out, prior to these events?

[flagged]

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#628

Post by krosaen »

padjo wrote: post #301
krosaen wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Aside from whether it is correct If it's mind boggling to you I would ask chatgpt, it's mind boggling to me that you don't care whether it is correct... But if you generally think chatGPT produces garbage, I guess that makes sense. I disagree, to me it's a good initial query, replacing google. As with google before, it is not authoritative (e.g AI may hallucinate, or google may land you on some SEO bs page), but I…

Nor do I dismiss it, in fact I was just using it to help me research something. I just don’t need people on the internet telling me what it said.

If I had just said, “from what I can tell after briefly researching” maybe I wouldn’t be taking so much heat on this one - the point wasn’t chatgpt, but to raise a point that hadn’t yet been raised in this discussion- what exactly is legal in this situation. But I will take the L on this one as it seemed to be received as if I was delighted to show the world I could use chatgpt lol.

And underlying all of this is a sense that maybe nobody is in the mood to explore the finer points or these terrible acts. I can accept that.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#629

Post by tomrod »

mariodiana wrote: post #563
tomrod wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not accurate, though I have found that people who steep in rightwing propaganda tend to repeat these type of talking points. The Rawlsian veil ethic applies here. EDIT: RE - the knee-jerk downvotes. I appreciate that people pointing out authoritarianism can be painful if you are embracing it. Cognitive dissonance is never a fun thing to work through, and having done it a few times I sympathize with the strugg…

I'm not going to downvote you. But Rawls never applies. Rawls is a big scam. At root, it is relativism wrapped up in the august raiment of state-of-nature social contract theory, whatever his protests to the contrary; and the relativism in this case is what "feels right" to him and his fancy neighbors living in Cambridge.

Rawls is just an extension of the golden rule, and anyone who is against treating others how they themselves would wish to be treated is probably someone who shouldn't have authority over others.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#630

Post by riehwvfbk »

viraptor wrote: post #19
riehwvfbk wrote: post #14

[flagged]

Downvoted/flagged trolling. Of course people can think of a better right thing to do in this case.

I know you mean well and want to save the world from trolls, but this is not a hypothetical. I have a friend who is in this exact situation (previous administration, don't get your hopes up for another story for your bandwagon). The parents had temporary asylum. They had kids in the US. Asylum expired and was not renewed. They've been fighting a court battle for several years now because there's an order to deport the parents and place the kids in foster care. They would prefer to stay in the US, but failing that they would like to leave with their children.
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