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ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

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Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#481

Post by slg »

perihelions wrote: post #395
nharada wrote: post #314

Feels like this conversation is full of people getting hung up on arguing the technicalities and exact phrasing of this situation. Is that really important to the broader conversation?

C-f "citizenship"—55 results C-f "metastatic cancer"—1 There's a poor child that's being withheld access to their medication and to their oncologists, and the adults in the room—adults in uniforms, adults with guns, adults in suits and adults in black robes—all of these adults are doing their adult things with their adult words, and the sum total of all that is the child still is without their cancer medicine. What g…

>There's a poor child that's being withheld access to their medication and to their oncologists, and the adults in the room—adults in uniforms, adults with guns, adults in suits and adults in black robes—all of these adults are doing their adult things with their adult words, and the sum total of all that is the child still is without their cancer medicine.

People like to blame these sort of situations on leadership and systems, but every individual involved in this is making a personal choice to let this happen.

Even if you agree with the general motivations and principles behind these, do you not have the humanity to realize the absurdity and cruelness of what is being done in some of these examples? No special accommodation can be made to get the kid with cancer their medicine while they are in custody?

I genuinely don't know how those questions can be answered any other way than "cruelty is the point" and if that is your response, I don't know how you sleep at night.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#482

Post by watwut »

cryptoegorophy wrote: post #441
nharada wrote: post #314

Feels like this conversation is full of people getting hung up on arguing the technicalities and exact phrasing of this situation. Is that really important to the broader conversation?

What’s the conversation? Separating kids from parents or deporting them with parents because we don’t want them to be separate? There is no question about breaking the law by parents. Question is do you let children be with their mothers(who apparently asked to do so) or no. As someone who came legally to Canada and went through thorough screening of 4 years before coming I just don’t get how people are ok with “chea…

A dad of a kid was literally fighting for the kid to stay. He is an American. I read about one case and that was the situation.

Maybe stop making hypotheticals designed to excuse what happened and fake concerns. There was no attempt to keep family together oe do right by the kids.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#483

Post by sanderjd »

apical_dendrite wrote: post #124
sanderjd wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This gets at another portion of the answer to the "what's your alternative suggestion?" question: I'd suggest Congress pass laws, rather than presidents making stuff up, illegally. This is clearly not a partisan point! Every president in my voting lifetime - Bush, Obama, Trump, Biden - has made up immigration law while Congress sat on its thumbs.

I agree with you. I think there has to be a reasonable solution that gives legal status to the guy who's been here for 20 years and is making a positive contribution to society, but doesn't allow someone to show up and exploit loopholes to stay forever. I think a reasonable compromise would look something like this: * Make it much easier for people to get temporary visas for the kinds of jobs where we need migrant wo…

Yep, the solution is pretty clear in broad strokes, as you described, but the bases of both parties advocate for radically opposed policy through executive action, which just makes the situation worse.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#484

Post by Terr_ »

shadowgovt wrote: post #449
whimsicalism wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is genuinely an extremely difficult challenge to manage illegal crossings if every individual must be processed through the full U.S. legal system which has massive resourcing and backlog problems (3m+ cases). Voters across the political spectrum have made it unmistakably clear — in poll after poll — that they are deeply dissatisfied with the current rate of illegal and asylum-seeking entries. Is there a morally p…

Purely hypothetically, blue sky solution space? If the law exceeds the government's ability to enforce it, relax it. It's de facto relaxed because of the lack of fundamental resources to enforce it... Put the reality on paper. Stop treating the southern border as a war zone and reopen it. It used to be more open. It was, in fact, more open in that magical America great period that MAGA ostensibly seems to be nostalgi…

In fact, that process is why deportation courts exist: The theory goes that you're not really punishing anyone, you're just sending them straight back out the door they just came through, therefore, a lower intensity of process is acceptable.

However that rationale becomes evil nonsense the moment a government starts "deporting" arrivals into a damned concentration camp, or back into the hands of people that want to kill them, seizing their property, separating them from their children, etc. since all of that is obviously punitive.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#485

Post by sanderjd »

retzkek wrote: post #132
sanderjd wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the children's citizenship was solely one of birthright Under the US Constitution, this is not a distinction. What you're looking for is just "the children's citizenship" without this qualifier that signifies nothing under the law. The better alternative is to aggressively enforce employment laws against employers . Immigrants come here and stay here to work.

And then, what? Are citizens beating down the doors to do these jobs but getting out-competed by migrants? Are these the same citizens who are lining up to do sweatshop labor when manufacturing “returns” to the US? If undocumented workers are finding productive work in an economy with low unemployment then the problem is that the government is not facilitating them gaining legal status.

I think then we would have an "oh shit" moment and finally reform the legal immigration system to allow immigrants to come do all these jobs legally.

It would be a forcing function.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#486

Post by rdtsc »

darksaints wrote: post #453
koolba wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I cannot for the life of me understand why Americans have such a problem with other people coming here to seek a better life. Half this country has been tricked into seeing hardworking immigrants as a threat to their safety and livelihood — but by all metrics, immigrants are a net positive to society. I have no issue with legal immigration. Far from it, I’m in favor of attracting the best, brightest, and most hard…

They deported a US Citizen. A child. Kept from contact from her US Citizen father. If that’s the sort of way that you believe we should treat legal immigrants, you have no basis to claim any support for them.

> A child. Kept from contact from her US Citizen father.

Is that true?

If this is the correct case link it doesn't seem like the father is a US citizen?

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.lawd.21...

> father executed a Provisional Custody by Mandate under Louisiana Revised Statutes

It seems odd that he would give provisional custody to "family friend" then?

Then this doesn't add up then

> Respondent Harper later sent an email further evincing her refusal to release V.M.L. to her custodian, see Exh. 2, and stating that she would instead require V.M.L.’s father to turn himself in for detention and deportation,

So they wanted to deport the US citizen father?

It's possible that I am looking at a different court case perhaps.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#487

Post by wat10000 »

mystraline wrote: post #466
wat10000 wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s worse than that. Far too many of us want this stuff. I understand the basic idea of how you fight an oppressive regime everyone hates. I have no idea how you go about fighting one that half the country supports. Protests aren’t going to fix that. Last time around, I could at least soothe myself with the idea that he only won because our electoral system is idiotic, and a lot of voters didn’t understand what they…

> I understand the basic idea of how you fight an oppressive regime everyone hates. I have no idea how you go about fighting one that half the country supports. Protests aren’t going to fix that. In reality, around 22% of the US populace (not just voters, but everyone) voted for Trump. Similar voted for Harris. The rest didn't vote. I refuse to attribute justifications, since they are too numerous. But that is correc…

I think you’re counting people who aren’t even eligible to vote. Among eligible voters, it was about 1/3rd to each of Trump, Harris, and staying home.

I don’t give a lot of credit to those who stayed home. They also knew who Trump was and decided to let others make the choice on their behalf.

I’m not confident that even violent action would change things when so many people are in favor of or at least ok with what’s going on. You’re not going to win a fight, so is the idea to win hearts and minds? I don’t see that working.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#488

Post by sanderjd »

conor_mc wrote: post #290
retzkek wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then, what? Are citizens beating down the doors to do these jobs but getting out-competed by migrants? Are these the same citizens who are lining up to do sweatshop labor when manufacturing “returns” to the US? If undocumented workers are finding productive work in an economy with low unemployment then the problem is that the government is not facilitating them gaining legal status.

We do have a chicken and egg problem. I think the idea here is that it's a systemic issue and the enforcement is focussed on individuals. This is analogous to the concept of getting everyday people to recycle when the companies creating the products have greater control over how much garbage is produced. Employers need to stop taking advantage of undocumented workers at artificially suppressed wages. This has acted l…

I don't think it's chicken and egg at all. I think lots of employers employ immigrants illegally, and then the immigrants take all the political heat. Anyone pissed about "all these illegals" should be at least just as pissed about all the businesses illegally employing them.

We should stop letting employers do this, and then we all discover that we still really want to employ immigrants, we should enable that, legally.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#489

Post by yubblegum »

tomrod wrote: post #230
yubblegum wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The moral answer is open borders. Both capital, which is generally freer than people are, and people should be able to vote with their feet. However, this is unsustainable unless .. A strong no on this being "the moral answer". If people are permitted to vote with their feet maybe people are also permitted to build pickets around communities. That sounds more "moral" to me than entirely ignoring the wishes of the c…

We already do this between states in the US and in the EU, so clearly it can work in practice. We don't normally look at it that way, but that is precisely how we structured things.

Someone moving from Virginia to California is moving within the same socio-political order and culture.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#490

Post by watwut »

umvi wrote: post #445
int0x29 wrote: post #398

And one child deported without cancer meds. At that point you are just trying to kill people

I don't think it's intentional, but rather collateral damage from trying to do deportations quickly and at the "millions" scale

It is intentional to discourage others and to make people afraid. It is even openly intentional.
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