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ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

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611–620 of 908 posts

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire interpretation of that amendment turns on this phrase: >and subject to the jurisdiction thereof And if you go back and read what the drafters of that amendment stated they meant on the floor of congress, they did not intend it to mean Jus soli. The idea was so ridiculous at the time that no one thought it worth writing it down. Pity. The controlling Supreme Court case spends a lot of time talking about Eng…

Do you have more info about what they said they meant? Certainly that clause has weight. It excludes diplomats, members of occupying armies, and members of Native tribes. But it seems strange to apply it to others, unless you’re also going to say that they have immunity from our laws as well.

It's not that they have "immunity", it's about whether the US Government has jurisdiction over them, meaning they can conscript them in time of war, collect taxes and so on, and that there isn't another foreign power that can do or already does this.

Howard, who introduced the Amendment, said this[1]:

>This amendment which I have offered is simply declaratory of what I regard as the law of the land already, that every person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons. It settles the great question of citizenship and removes all doubt as to what persons are or are not citizens of the United States.

>Now, all this amendment provides is, that all persons born in the United States and not subject to some foreign Power—for that, no doubt, is the meaning of the committee who have brought the matter before us—shall be considered as citizens of the United States ... If there are to be citizens of the United States entitled everywhere to the character of citizens of the United States, there should be some certain definition of what citizenship is, what has created the character of citizen as between himself and the United States, and the amendment says citizenship may depend upon birth, and I know of no better way to give rise to citizenship than the fact of birth within the territory of the United States, born of parents who at the time were subject to the authority of the United States.

Doubly funny that he added a line in that speech where he thinks all ambiguity is gone.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_M._Howard#Speech_on_the_...

[2] https://archive.org/details/the-congressional-globe-39th-con...

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C-f "citizenship"—55 results C-f "metastatic cancer"—1 There's a poor child that's being withheld access to their medication and to their oncologists, and the adults in the room—adults in uniforms, adults with guns, adults in suits and adults in black robes—all of these adults are doing their adult things with their adult words, and the sum total of all that is the child still is without their cancer medicine. What g…

You are wrong in assuming good intentions. This child is on the eyes of some people "less than human".

As evidenced by some 291,000 undocumented children whose administrative paperworks are lost.

https://www.oig.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/assets/2024-08/O...

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> The only Orwellian thing is she was lied to by Democrats that she could lead a safe life in the US. That’s on you. This cannot be overstated. I wish I had a thousand up votes to give you. Democrats made a promise they knew would never hold up just for the votes. Now the chickens are coming home to roost and these people who were lied to by Democrats are the ones paying the price.

What promise was that, exactly? Do you have a quote?

If not, and you mean “promise by inaction”, then could we say then that Trump made a promise to racists, neo-nazis, crypto criminals, the Russian government, etc?

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#614
post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans don’t trust the press. A lot of these technicalities are parsing “what did the press actually say” which is the first step in dealing with an untrustworthy source of truth.

The press has way better track record then right wing personalities systematically villyfying it.

But yet, due to the nature of asymmetric warfare, it's so easy to discredit a reputable institution that holds itself to some standards which sometimes are not met. All you need to attack it is to not have any such standards but just flood the zone with shit and when you say something wrong just lie or claim "I never claimed to be an expert, I hate experts, I'm just a comedian/or something like that"

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: how did you envision "wide-scale deportations" playing out, prior to these events?

Good question. I still think it's unfair for these people to stay here, when legal refugees spent waiting years or decades for permission to enter often in bad conditions in refugee camps. The issue here is officials keep rounding up students on legal visas and parents who’ve lived here for years—exactly the people the article labels “families who had lived in the United States for years and had deep ties to their co…

I think people often forget that even though these people came here illegally, a majority of them submit themselves immediately to authorities to enter into the immigration court. Nine out of ten times, they are just given a future court date and released on their on recognizance legally into the United States (typically with some restrictions on movement).

Why? Because that's how the system was legally designed to work. You want them to stay here, because some % cases are valid (a lot surrender at ports of entry). So then you must ask yourself, what went wrong? Cartels figured out they could break the system by overwhelming it, yet we had a clear cut way to solve it.

The parties politicized the topic by not doing anything about it... and now here we are.

Question: When Obama/Biden supported legislation to hire more immigration judges to work through the backlog of cases, did you support the legislation as well?

There are for more just ways to handle this. These people are tyrant oligarchs, and need to be treated as such. Today's it's "those people", tomorrow it will be "your people".

https://immigrationimpact.com/2015/05/21/bi-partisan-house-b...

https://www.axios.com/2024/12/31/biden-immigration-courts-de...

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#616
post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's intentional, but rather collateral damage from trying to do deportations quickly and at the "millions" scale

It's intentional. The cruelty is the point.

[flagged]

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#617
post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Either the technicalities matter, or our legal system runs on vibes. I think it is important.

It was once legal to own people so what the fuck do you think it runs on

Laws != Legal system

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#618
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From what research I've seen, the phrasing here should be that non-citizens were deported and chose to bring their US citizen children with them. The children themselves were not deported. That seems deliberately Orwellian. What's the "not deported" scenario you're imagining? Literally abandoning your child in a jail somewhere?! It's not like these folks are in hotels, or have access to phones or family. I mean, yi…

[flagged]

Honest question, does it have to be done this way? Or could they wait maybe 2 extra hours until the child was safe? It seems to me that they are cowards who prey on those weaker than them and are too afraid to face those of their “own size”.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nowhere in the economic research does it explain what you are so confidently stating, that wages are, somehow, the only thing in all of economics where positive supply shocks do not matter. The arguments that tend to be made are that, on a long enough time horizon, mean wages increase because overall economic output goes up, and mean economic output goes up because there is a higher supply of available labor.

You're fundamentally misunderstanding both the economic research and my argument. No one is claiming wages are "the only thing in economics where positive supply shocks don't matter." The research shows that labor markets aren't simple supply-demand curves because of complementary productivity effects and gains from specialization, selection effects, and, of course, demand generated by the immigrants. If you have gen…

Okay. Which other things don't see effects from positive supply shocks? You're just restating my premise about time horizons. The pie grows, with time, if a bunch of other things happen in the right order. Wages haven't grown in two decades in the UK, your original example. So, how are you defining short and medium term? Three decades?

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#620

Feels like this conversation is full of people getting hung up on arguing the technicalities and exact phrasing of this situation. Is that really important to the broader conversation?

This is what HN has felt like for the past ~year ish. Makes me realize this community has a lot of "bike shedding" types who easily miss the forest from the trees.

Slowly stopped looking for insight here on any topic that involves even a small amount of larger picture thinking, really quite sad.

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