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ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

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Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#471

Post by shadowgovt »

roughly wrote: post #359
IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US hospitals do not have magical pixie dust to grant US citizenship. This is why birthright as a legal concept is a diminishment of citizenship for all those who hold it. Parents pass on the shared history, values, and national culture to their kids. Parents are those who give value to US citizenship. Not coming out of a belly, that happens to be inside a US hospital.

> Parents pass on the shared history, values, and national culture to their kids. Except our nation’s shared history, values, and national culture is that we’re a nation of immigrants, a melting pot of global cultures, a refuge for those in need, and a place where anyone can come to seek their fortune, so obviously American parents haven’t been passing on those values to their children if we’re still having this deba…

To be blunt, America's children are getting a lot more of their shared cultural values from Bluey than their parents, so I think we could stand to pump the brakes on concern about whether children born in this country are as American as children born in this country to parents who were born in this country.

That way lies a very ugly argument about who is enough on the team. One that almost nobody who thinks themselves American wins, because the real winners of that argument should be the folks stuck into reservations by the alien ancestors of those who see themselves as "true Americans, born of Americans."

For Americans in particular, the best strategy for not having their own legitimacy challenged is definitely not to pull too hard on the legitimacy thread.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#472

Post by neither_color »

mc32 wrote: post #437
neither_color wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a few. It's the majority of two continents.

It's the great minority of countries in the world.

Well then it's a good thing historical context matters more than numerical consensus when analyzing why the majority of two continents settled by Europeans in the last 500 years nearly all opted for one broad form of conferring citizenship over another. If you were to redact the name of all 195 countries, but list ten facts about them and draw random names, you could accurately predict which ones will have birthright citizenship just by looking at other properties.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#473

Post by usernomdeguerre »

chasd00 wrote: post #250
tuan wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

5mil for a gold card and expedited path to citizenship I’ve heard.

Just like everywhere else.

There are places that do not have pay-for-citizenship.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#474

Post by umvi »

elliotec wrote: post #433
AustinDev wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's do another time warp. It's 2000, Bill Clinton is about to wrap up his second term and has deported more people in that term than any president ever at nearly 7,000,000 deportations. Trump barely had 2,000,000 deportations in his first term. Trump's first term was the lowest level of deportations for any administration since Carter. Obama, Reagan, Both Bushes, Clinton and Biden all deported more people every ter…

How many of those included US citizens and legal residents?

Hard to tell since the legacy media has historically leaned left (and has tended tend to look the other way on stories that make democrat administrations look bad), but I would not be surprised if, out of 7 million, some % of corner cases slipped through due to human error.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#475

Post by sanderjd »

roamerz wrote: post #95
sanderjd wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This gets at another portion of the answer to the "what's your alternative suggestion?" question: I'd suggest Congress pass laws, rather than presidents making stuff up, illegally. This is clearly not a partisan point! Every president in my voting lifetime - Bush, Obama, Trump, Biden - has made up immigration law while Congress sat on its thumbs.

There have been many laws passed by Congress addressing immigration. It is against law to cross the border without authorization. This particular case exists as a result of not enforcing those laws. Pretty simple.

Despite past congresses passing laws, the system is not good. A major contributor to the problem of people immigrating illegally is that our legal immigration system is a total mess. This is why there have been a number of efforts at reforms over the past few decades. But none of them have worked, leaving us in this situation where presidents from both parties do all this illegal stuff by executive action.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#476

Post by watwut »

pyuser583 wrote: post #414
nharada wrote: post #314

Feels like this conversation is full of people getting hung up on arguing the technicalities and exact phrasing of this situation. Is that really important to the broader conversation?

Americans don’t trust the press. A lot of these technicalities are parsing “what did the press actually say” which is the first step in dealing with an untrustworthy source of truth.

The press has way better track record then right wing personalities systematically villyfying it.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#477

Post by sanderjd »

jfengel wrote: post #165
sanderjd wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This gets at another portion of the answer to the "what's your alternative suggestion?" question: I'd suggest Congress pass laws, rather than presidents making stuff up, illegally. This is clearly not a partisan point! Every president in my voting lifetime - Bush, Obama, Trump, Biden - has made up immigration law while Congress sat on its thumbs.

It's not quite that Congress has sat on its thumbs. Individual Congressmen have been (figuratively) screaming at each other. Committees are at each other's throats trying to get some sort of legislation to the table. Nobody can stand the possibility of giving the other side what they want -- at the insistence of their constituents. The net result, of course, is identical to if they had all stayed home.

Yeah I think you just described what sitting on their thumbs looks like, for a legislative body :)

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#478

Post by rdtsc »

p_j_w wrote: post #313
somenameforme wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every day across the world thousands of people are removed from countries around the world for violating immigration laws. Except in cases of where it coincided with criminality, it's always going to be very ugly, because it means somebody had built up a life for themselves somewhere and that is now ended due to them having been born in a different place and then overstayed their permission, or never received such, t…

> what do you propose as an alternative with a precedent that you think could be agreeable to most people? How about real actual fucking due process? Maybe they can NOT cut off communication when the citizen father tried to provide her with a phone number for legal counsel. Anything else is ghoulish. Keep defending it if you really don’t give a shit about your level of humanity.

> Maybe they can NOT cut off communication when the citizen father tried

Is father a US citizen?

Based on https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.lawd.21... assuming that's the right case it doesn't seem like he is

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#480

Post by surgical_fire »

southernplaces7 wrote: post #131
surgical_fire wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The interesting thing about this parallel, is that the "final solution" in Germany was final because it was not the original solution. Originally they wanted to, well, deport the undesirables to some far off country, initially to Madagascar if memory serves. Managing mass incarceration and deportation is a difficult task however, and these people (both then and now) are not exactly competent at anything beyond bravad…

>Managing mass incarceration and deportation is a difficult task however, and these people (both then and now) are not exactly competent at anything beyond bravado. The holocaust also required mass incarceration and deportation, except that the huge undertaking of deportation was towards death camps in occupied territories instead of some foreign land. On the first point above, I caution against thinking that it woul…

> be careful about calling evil people practicing evil ends incompetent.

The Nazi were a mess, plagued with infighting, and completely incapable of measuring the strength of their opponents, which eventually led to their downfall.

Incompetent evil people can still do a lot of harm until they screw up for good. This doesn't stop them being incompetent.

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